Grooving on pads, and wanting to add sticks... (making my introduction)

[doug_carmichael]

I'm a 26-year-old electronic music/music technology aficionado (who has been into electronic music since six, and computers in general since four), and I've always had an affection for the rhythm and groove in music (and a sense for it) more so than things melodic.

(Always wanted an Ensoniq EPS/ASR-10 when I was younger...)

Tried various sorts of software (Reason, etc.), but even with a hardware controller, I wasn't able to really express myself as well as I could with real quality percussion controllers.

When I got my hands on a Roland MV-8000 sampling drum machine, I felt very inspired and was getting ideas out from the first time I tried it in the store.

It just "felt" right, and I've done a lot of 2-4 bar loops on it since. Some of them have just been from ideas that "popped up" in my head.. (unrehearsed... Don't flame me, you long-time/properly-trained adrummers... I'm still welcome here, right?

Now, since I'm building a "proper" music room, (and in furtherance of exploration of all things rhythm/groove-oriented), I want to add either a full ekit (TD-12/20 class) or a small percussion pad if budget/space doesn't permit that.

(ie. SPD-20/SPD-S).

My questions are:

1) I demoed the TD-12 kit in a local store, and it felt rather cramped for me as a large (5ft9in) person. Is there any way to stretch the rack/pads out so that there is more space to move around on the kit, or would I be better off biting the bullet for the TD-20? (or starting with a SPD-20/SPD-S on a stand, and getting a proper kit when space/resources permit)

When I got on the TD-20, I really felt more comfortable on it because of the spread-out rack and pad sizes, but it is a significant price increase... (another factor in my decision.)

2) Are there other options I could look at besides the Roland kits? I'm going to have my Mac as the hub of the room, with sound-generating software on it. (My big concern is pad feel/rebound response to prevent wrist issues or carpal tunnel, and I'm not able to demo a lot of the models like Hart/RET/etc. in my area.)

Any Chicago-area vdrummers on the forum? I'd be interested in making some contacts...

Thanks!

[stickinthemud]

Welcome to the forum!

I can just see you in Santa's lap, asking for an Ensoniq EPS/ASR-10!

Definitely stick with mesh to avoid wrist pain. Some play extensively on rubber without problems, others not.

While the pads are smaller on the TD12s, you should be able to space them out sufficiently to accommodate your playing style. The TD20s pads give you a bigger target, something a hacker like myself needs!

I'd say if the TD12s will fit your needs pad and module-wise, go with that and use the extra $ for other toys.

[Fullback32]

1) I demoed the TD-12 kit in a local store, and it felt rather cramped for me as a large (5ft9in) person. Is there any way to stretch the rack/pads out so that there is more space to move around on the kit, or would I be better off biting the bullet for the TD-20? (or starting with a SPD-20/SPD-S on a stand, and getting a proper kit when space/resources permit)

When I got on the TD-20, I really felt more comfortable on it because of the spread-out rack and pad sizes, but it is a significant price increase... (another factor in my decision.)

2) Are there other options I could look at besides the Roland kits? I'm going to have my Mac as the hub of the room, with sound-generating software on it. (My big concern is pad feel/rebound response to prevent wrist issues or carpal tunnel, and I'm not able to demo a lot of the models like Hart/RET/etc. in my area.)

Any Chicago-area vdrummers on the forum? I'd be interested in making some contacts...

Thanks!

First off...welcome to the board and to the wonderful world of e-drumming!

As to your first question...it's always possible to make your rack bigger. Gibraltar offers rack tubes in many different sizes thay will be perfectly compatible with the Roland clamps....of course, if your are like so many others including me, you will probably find yourself replacing those clamps with heavier duty Gibraltar clamps down the road anyway. Here's a link for both the straight and curved tubes.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibraltar-Straight-Rack-Tube?sku=446267

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gibraltar-Curved-Drum-Rack-Extension-Tube?sku=447782

As to getting TD-20 over a TD-12, the question shouldn't be so much one of rack size of the kit and comfort. As was mentioned above you can always make your rack bigger inexpensively by getting bigger tubes. The real question of a TD-20 or a TD-12 is one of cost and performance. Do your performance needs (or "wants" ) justify the cost of a TD-20? Let's face it, TD-20 is the top of the line...that's the reason to get a 20 over a 12.

For question 2....like stick said, mesh is always the way to go IMHO. Better feel and response and less stress on the wrists. Just for sake of argument, I didn't get a chance to demo Hart gear either. Music stores just don't seem to carry them. After a lot of research on boards like this and other places, I took a chance and bought Hart sight unseen. I have never regretted it. They are quality drums at a good price. Just food for thought.

[doug_carmichael]

Would a SPD-20/SPD-S be a good "percussion adjunct" in the studio?

I've done some thinking, and I'm still focused on electronic music production and live performance (aka "Live PA": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Live_PA), and have no plans to shift my focus to becoming purely a drummer. (As most of the users of TD-xx kits are.)

So, the main part of my studio will be based around synths/samplers, and thus my budget allocation will be designed around them first.

Those will include my current Roland MV-8000 and JP-8080, a workstation like the Roland Fantom-G6/7 or Yamaha MOTIF XS6/7, as well as the Elektron SPS-1UW Machinedrum-UW Mk2 and SFX-60 Monomachine Mk2.

But, I want to have tactile drumming as an "adjunct" to conventional synthesis interfaces in the studio (my college had a HPD-15 HandSonic hand drum pad), and also to provide a way to interact with rhythms during performance in a more organic way than the MV/MPC 16 pad interface provides.

(See the first two videos for an example of what I mean.)

If you gripped the stick correctly and took precautions, could you use the SPD pads without having wrist/carpal tunnel issues?

Does anyone know of a mesh equivalent to the SPD/Octapad?

Here are some example youtube videos of the SPD in electronic performance:

Jungle Deconstruction 3 (What grip is he using?)
SPD-20
SPD-S funk

Thanks for your help!

[The Un-dr.]

Carpal Tunnel

A little off-topic, but I saw your concern about carpal tunnel and I would like to suggest you visit this site about Active Release Techniques (ART): http://www.activerelease.com/

ART has saved professional athletes' careers for various repetitive stress injuries and they have great success with carpal tunnel, returning patients to full functionality. My chiropractor is a Olympic medalist and works with professional football players, Division 1 athletes etc. and after my first visit, I had no more chronic pain in my shoulders. Also done wonders for my hamstring, arm, back, and knees--you name it.

Anyway, check out the site to see if there are certified ART practitioners in your area--make sure they listed on the site as many integrity-challenged chiropractors will tell you they do it or do "the same thing," but are not certified by Dr. Leahy.

Good luck!

[Ericdrumz]

hey, i played an spd20 at a store once (for hours) but didn't buy one,
mainly because i think more "as a drummer" than a percussionist.
therefore i'm not really qualified to answer your questions, BUT, looking
at the vids maybe i can add a few things.

the grip he uses is american matched grip, with mainly use of wrists,
maybe seek out a teacher who can teach you american, french
and german matched? so you can use and choose all 'benefits' of those.

using sticks you can utilize doubles/diddles/drags that are used
a lot in drum&bass type rhythms and which you cannot play on
fingerpads. spd20 has lots of rebound so if you checkout those
rudiments it's 'relatively straightforward' to do.
hope this helped.

[Michael Render]

I wish there was a mesh equivelant of the SPD. But there isn't. But the rubber pads of the SPD-S (which I have) is much more forgiving then some of the earlier attempts. There is a lot of bounce so it is not so hard on the wrists.

I see from your first post that you are planning on generating the sounds from your Mac. If that is the case, there are a lot of options to consider.

DrumKAT - these are the most flexible MIDI drum pads I have ever used.

For mesh, you could build a small kit from 6 PD-85s and a TMC-6.

For cheap, there is the Alesis Performance Pad. Like the Octopad, only a lot softer.

Oh, and since when in 5'9" large?

[doug_carmichael]

An update:

I went to another store in my area (which had the TD-20 in stock), and found out that while the TD-20 had slightly more area (because of the larger rack, and I liked the way the module could be more easily accessed) ... the way they had the TD-12 set up was very easy for me to move around in

(Could it be that it was set up properly by someone who knew what they were doing? This larger store had a full-time drum department vs. part-time drum instructors.)

Also, I liked the sponginess and feel of the SPD-S vs. the SPD-20, and had a lot of fun playing some of the default patches in it. (The edge triggers are nice..)

What do you think? If I do go with a kit, would the larger pads be better for learning (if the TD-20 fits into my budget and room), or would the 12 be just as serviceable?

Where have you seen the best prices on the TD-20/12 kits?

[Colquhoun]

If your budget allows you to even get CLOSE to getting a TD-20, then do it. You'll never wonder, "what if.."

From what I have seen, RMC Audio and BPM Music have some of the best prices...quite a bit below the minimum advertised prices all over the internet. You'll have to call for a quote, but it's worth it.

[doug_carmichael]

What pedals/hi-hat stand would you recommend if I do go with a kit?

The demo TD-12 kit at the first store had a DW 5000 double pedal, but it didn't feel right because the beaters were off-center, and they weren't the proper Roland-supplied beaters. (Isn't it advised to use the Roland-supplied beater for the kick pad, as per the manual?)

Also, the Yamaha HH stand/pedal they had the VH-11 on had an "odd" response to it. (ie. I could only get a single HH sound out of it, no opening/closing sound like I've seen in the TD12/20 demo videos. Could that be because the offset isn't set properly?)

What do you think would be a good solid kick pedal and HH stand? I saw this thread on DrummerWorld (DW 9000 vs. DW 5000), and it seems to be a mix of preferences between the 9k and 5k.

What have your experiences been with the DW5k/9k?

Basically, I want smoothness and ease of response, but also the ability to have precise control when needed. (The tension of the HH stand is adjustable, right?)

Is there a way to move the TD12 module out a bit on the rack so that the VH11 doesn't overhang it?