Seeking advice on overall setup

[bwilburn79]

This will be a lengthy read so bear with me.

We recently replaced the acoustic kit, in our youth worship band, with my TD-12 powered, DIY, edrum kit. The youth meet in a cinder block walled room (upper half of our former gymnasium) with open 20' ceilings, that will hold approximately 150 people. Our stage is triangular in shape and sits in the corner of the room. Let's say it is 15' across the front and 15' from front to back. I sit on a riser at the back of the stage. I don't know that any of this is important but I'm trying to paint a picture I guess.

We have keys, an electric guitar, an acoustic electric guitar, a bass, and usually (3) vocalists arranged across the front half of the stage. Our FOH consists of (2) 15" 2-way speakers that don't have a lot of low end, positioned at the front corners of the stage. Since keys, vocals, acoustic and electric guitars, and now Vdrums go through them I suspect they get muddy pretty quick. For monitors, the electric guitarist and bassist have their own amps and everything else comes through (2) 12" wedges on the front of the stage.

We've only played once since the change. I had my own monitor mix from the sound board. I plugged it into my mix-in input on the module and set it to only output through my headphones (Audio Technica ATH-M50). This setup worked ok for me. I should've spent more time tweaking my monitor mix during sound check. Everyone else on stage loved the Vdrums because suddenly they can hear themselves in the monitor without an acoustic kit pounding 3' behind them. My main concern is getting a full sound for myself and conveying the energy of a big rocking kit to the audience.

Here's where the advice comes in.

Monitoring the drums:

I don't mind using the headphones because I get great sound and help to keep stage volume lower. I feel like I play my best when I have a full sounding mix. I basically want it to sound like I'm jamming along with a track. If anything is lacking, it seems that my playing becomes more timid because I don't know how I relate dynamically. I think I would like to employ a mixer. I think I would want to mix in the FOH mix, and my own monitor mix. Ideally the FOH mix would be just right and I wouldn't need to accentuate anything in particular in my own monitor mix??

What the audience hears:

What would be the ideal way to get my best sound to the audience? Something that can handle everyone and the drums? Stand alone speakers for just the drums?

I'm looking for suggestions on any or all of this. Keep in mind the church isn't likely to run out and buy a new setup.

[hairmetal-81]

Quite an exhaustive topic, but I will try:

A submixer for yourself is definitely a good idea. If you let the FOH-guy give you separate feeds of the different band-members, you can adjust your own monitor-mix yourself, i.e. raise or lower the bass-player, keys, vocals etc.

Dynamically, there is really no need to be timid. Nothing that you have to worry about. If the signal of the E's is getting too loud, that's what the person in charge of the FOH is paid for, to keep levels in check.

For the FOH speakers, I'll strongly advice you to consider at least one dedicated subwoofer. Adding it to your existing 2-way speakers, to form a satellite-system, even if the tops have 15" in them. What kind of brand of speakers do you use, by the way?
Would perhaps a completely different P.A. system fit into the budget?



HTH

[fulrmr(Daniel)]

Yep...Totally agree with adding at least 1 (2 is better) subs for the FOH. Line everyone into the the FOH mixer and then use some sort of individual monitoring system for you the stage. IEM (best for keeping stage noise down)or at least some sort of matrix(or sub mixer) where everyone can have their own mix and monitor just how they need it to feel comfy with their playing. The less you are "blaring" on stage the better the FOH will sound....but you really need some subs...or at the very least some high end 2/3way cabs for the FOH for adequate bottom end.

[angr77]

Hi. Good discussion! I just want to hint about a nice mixer from Mackie called DL-1608. It is a Ipad/Iphone based mixer with 16 inputs and 2 + 6 outputs. Basically all members in my band have their own IEM controlled by the members ipad/iphone. (they can mix their monitormix how they want for all 16 inputs) All sound control are done over a wirless network attached to the mixer. We are using a mix of cable and wirelss based IEM which all members have one dedicated output from the monitormix. I am sending to 5 inputs from my drums...kick, snare, hihat + 2x OH. (MD, Addictive Drums, PC, 8 channel sound card) Everything else is lined...2 guitars (they have a forest of pedals..), keyboard, bass, 2x vocals... On the FOH we are using 2x SRM 1801 active subs + 2x SRM 450 fullrange speakers. The FOH can be handled wirelessly by somebody with an IPAD...(sitting in the bar...) Pretty neat? Best Regards Angr77

[angr77]

When all systems are running... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhwcraO6L-k

[bwilburn79]

This sounds like a beautiful setup. I'm a fan of Mackie products as well. Honestly, if I could personally afford it, I'd purchase (2) SRM 1801's with (2) SRM 450's mounted on top and let the church use them. But I digress...

[hairmetal-81]

That Mackie system sounds like an awesome rig. You almost went to some expense, there!

[angr77]

Ok. All together have some costs...but the hart DL1608... Costs like $1000...

[hairmetal-81]

Phew!

You get what you pay for, I guess.
Mackie normally means Quality, and if that piece lasts you 5-6 years, you nonetheless made a stellar purchase!

[bwilburn79]

A submixer for yourself is definitely a good idea. If you let the FOH-guy give you separate feeds of the different band-members, you can adjust your own monitor-mix yourself, i.e. raise or lower the bass-player, keys, vocals etc.

This would be ideal, I agree. I'll have to investigate to see if our board can support this. At this point, I'm just getting my own mix from the sound board, which is tweaked during a set-it-and-forget-it sound check.

Dynamically, there is really no need to be timid. Nothing that you have to worry about. If the signal of the E's is getting too loud, that's what the person in charge of the FOH is paid for, to keep levels in check.

Agreed. I'm just guilty of thinking that the levels I'm hearing are the same as the audience I guess. That's why I thought having the FOH mix in my ears might give me a better idea of what is going out to the audience. Then if I'm having issues hearing a particular instrument or vocals, I can boost it in my monitor mix.

For the FOH speakers, I'll strongly advice you to consider at least one dedicated subwoofer. Adding it to your existing 2-way speakers, to form a satellite-system, even if the tops have 15" in them.

That's what I was thinking. The energy of the drums, particularly the low end, will suffer without a dedicated sub. I suppose if we had said sub, we could EQ the 2-way speakers with less low end, which might prevent them from getting so muddy?

What kind of brand of speakers do you use, by the way?
Would perhaps a completely different P.A. system fit into the budget?

I don't know about the brands or capabilities of our sound system as I'm not involved in sound production whatsoever. This space for our youth is part of a recent expansion, and all the equipment is brand new. That's not to say it is high quality, I honestly don't know. I do know that a completely different P.A. is not going to happen. My main reason for posting here is to see how you all have adapted to implementing E-drums into existing sound systems. I suspected the addition of a sub (or 2) was in order. I suspected many would have a dedicated sub and 2-way drum only setup as well.

[hairmetal-81]

This would be ideal, I agree. I'll have to investigate to see if our board can support this. At this point, I'm just getting my own mix from the sound board, which is tweaked during a set-it-and-forget-it sound check.

I'll definitely encourage you to do so!
To accomplish this, your board will have to have one of two things:
Either a lot of 'auxiliary sends' (sometimes labeled 'Aux' or 'Monitor sends'), *or* direct outs for each channel.

If none of this present, you could work with a 'Splitter' box (with as much channels as you have inputs on your board.)
This way, both the FOH-board, and your own personal drums-submixer will get the same signals!

That's what I was thinking. The energy of the drums, particularly the low end, will suffer without a dedicated sub. I suppose if we had said sub, we could EQ the 2-way speakers with less low end, which might prevent them from getting so muddy?

Yep! They might get 'boomy' in the lower frequencies if you boost the low end too much. By getting a sub, you can put a lot less strain' on the 2-way speakers. You'll be able to drive them louder, because you gained some headroom in the low frequencies.
(Cheaper speakers also could get damaged if you boost the low end too much. Then again, you are using 15" woofers, so less risk there.)

I don't know about the brands or capabilities of our sound system as I'm not involved in sound production whatsoever.

No problem. But it doesn't hurt to ask!



HTH