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What The Audience Hears!

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  • #1

    What The Audience Hears!

    I have now been playing my new TD-12 with Pm30 monitor... for about a month... I love it!
    I have mostly been using the #1 kit and the #50 kit along with a brush kit #10 from time to time.
    I have not done too much experimenting yet... (that will come)
    The sound "I" have... hearing thru the PM-30 sounds full, robust.... has life and sounds like a good drum set should sound. the crashes are very lively... the ride symbal is very good, splashes sound good. the snare sounds and the toms sounds are loud with plenty of life to them.... high hats... are terrific... bass is good!
    That perspective is from "my" point of hearing, behind the set with the PM-30.
    I thought this was wonderful and did not think any different until a few folks said they could not hear the drums well, cymbals ok but not the drums!
    I was pretty surprised!
    I talked to the sound guy and he said he would change things if and when I said so...but he felt there was no problem.
    Well Last night I had finally got a back up drummer to sit in for 4 songs at the end... I was totally shocked to hear these beautiful sounding Vdrums sound like a cheap set... distant... lower in volume... no brilliance... no life.
    The sounds did not even match the rest of the band at all... I heard mostly the lead guitar and bass. Now I am not complaining about those folks... I think they played well and the sounded appropriatly loud and correct... BUT... the Vdrums did not match their strength in an way!
    So many questions...
    1. how do you folks feed to the sound board? From the MODULE or from the PM-30?
    I have the sound going out from the MODULE thru the master R & L, to the Pm-30 input channel one.
    I have the band monitors going into my channel two.
    I have the sound going to the board from the PM-30 at this time using the "mono out"
    2. Do my settings I use on the PM-30 effect the sound going to the main sound board? (if it does... he is not getting what I am hearing at all)
    3. If I need to go straight from my MODULE... all I have left is Direct 1 & 2! Which one? Or both?
    I hope you guys get the gist of this... playing behind the set and in front of the PM-30 it sounds wonderful and very lively... to the audience... it sounds cheap and distant... not lively at all no depth no fullness... very bland.
    Thanks in advance for your inputs
    Ralph
    As the Wise Ole' drummer says... !:cool:
    Tags: None
  • #2
    I'd guess the problems are with the sound guy and/or PA system rather than your TD-12 or PM-30. It sounds like he should be able to make improvements with levels and EQ at the mixing board.


    Bruce

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    • #3
      Originally posted by BarT View Post
      I'd guess the problems are with the sound guy and/or PA system rather than your TD-12 or PM-30. It sounds like he should be able to make improvements with levels and EQ at the mixing board.


      Bruce
      I'll second that. A good engineer should know how to balance everything nicely. That is the vast majority of what a live engineer does. It is also their job to speak to you if something is not right so it can be corrected.

      You can set up the TD12 direct outs to mirror your main outputs.
      Setup - F2 (output) - select each instrument and scroll the value wheel clockwise until all four outs on each instrument are selected.
      Then, you could give your FOH engineer the direct 1 and 2 outs (as a stereo pair) and use your main outs for your PM30 (also a stereo pair).

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      • #4
        During the four songs (when the other drummer was playing) were you not able to make some adjustments at the soundboard? I know I would have. When using my TD-12, I send the direct outs to the board and take one of the monitor sends (drums only) back to my monitor. YMMV depending on what's available from your soundboard.
        TD-20, SPD-S, TAMA '82 Superstars
        http://www.outawhack.net/drumming ___ http://www.zendaddyband.com ___ http://www.myspace.com/353238983

        Comment

        • #5
          Ok... I got into drumming a couple years ago, but have been running sound for live shows for 10 (or so) years, so I tend to defer to the sound tech side of myself.

          I have a TD-8 that I've used live, so I have the same situation as you - master and direct outs. The best thing to do from a FOH engineer's perspective would be to upgrade to a TD-20 to get the direct outs, but barring that, I separated my kit four ways to send to my sound tech.

          Master_L -> Snare
          Master_R -> Kick
          Direct_L -> Toms
          Direct_R -> All cymbals (incl. HH)

          I don't have a personal monitor that I mix - I just have a wedge that gets sent back to me so I can mix in all my drums and the band too. If you wanted to mix yourself, I'd suggest one of two routes:

          1 - get a stereo trs -> 2 mono trs splitter and drive the PM-30 from your headphones jack
          2 - get a small mixer board (4+ channel, and insert jacks). Take the four outs (masters and directs), plug them into your board, and mix them for yourself to send to the PM-30. Send the inserts to your sound tech.

          Splitting up your kit makes a night and day difference for your sound tech. Because you were only sending him L/R, he wasn't able to bring up just the drums - the cymbals would have been too loud. Also, it's for the sake of EQ. Different parts of the kit need to be EQ'd differently. You want the cymbals to stand out and have some shimmer on the high end, but the toms need some low end punch once you get to the floor tom.

          If it still doesn't sound good after that, I'd recommend getting a new sound tech.
          Last edited by dustyd63; 04-28-08, 05:38 PM. Reason: Proofreading... which I should have done before.
          Td-8, VH-11, VH-11, CY-12R/C, CY-14, CY-15, Hart 13" snare, DIY Taye toms & bass
          Yamaha Oak Customs, New Beat hats, 15" K Dk Crash, 17" A Custom Crash, Z 18" 1950/60's Vintage Crash, 20" K Dark Custom Ride, 10" K Splash

          Comment

          • #6
            Separation. The importance of that can't be overstated. Usually, the sound tech will be trying to cope with making the overall mix match up to whichever instrument is the loudest on stage. Regrettably, this is usually the ego-driven lead guitarist who can only get his groove on when his full stack is turned up to 11. If the cymbals are hot in a E-drum feed, he then has no choice but to either underutilize the drums, or EQ out the whole top end on them, which will probably just lead to mud. Nasty.

            It's a two-pronged thing: first, give the sound guy what he needs- separate the drums and cymbals, at the very least (since many if not most live PA setups are mixed to mono in any case, sending a stereo feed from an instrument is usually a waste). And secondly, get control of the stage volume levels from the other players, so that the sound guy has any chance of getting a decent mix without driving the PA to death trying to get everything else up over the loudest stage instrument...

            Look at it this way- it always used to be us drummers who were too loud and drove up the stage levels. The shoe's on the other foot now, isn't it? (;-) Tell the guitarist that there are some really tasty sounding little-bitty amps out there...
            Last edited by skod; 04-28-08, 08:03 PM.

            Comment

            • #7
              the only other alternative i could suggest is using your own pa system (powered according to the type of venues you play at obviously), independent of the other players' mixing console and pa completely. This would ensure the sound quality of your kit without interference. The level adjustments could easily be made during sound check - unless the soundman cheats during the show and increases the volume!
              http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.p...760#post301760
              :cool:
              ;)

              Comment

              • #8
                Wow... some great help!
                To answer Lopan's comment... no room behind the board for two and I don't have a clue how to adjust any sound on the board.
                The sound guy is part of the family that owns the place (son in law)... and the lead guitar is the owner! LOL The sound guy is mediocre and he is there... and I am sure they are not looking to replace him.
                So... my chore is to work closer with him and try to communicate as much as I can. What I need is another drummer to help on the sound or to play while I coach the sound guy on what to do with the drums sounds. (I would rather have another drummer or sound guy adjusting the board)
                Question....When I send the sound board my signal... what does he get?
                Is "his" signal affected by "my" monitor? Volume & mix?
                If I turn up my volume on the PM-30, does he get louder? Or if I turn up the Module does "his" signal get louder? (incoming signal not his output)
                I feel that no matter what volume I send to him... he is in total control and can limit my signal or sound output.
                Today I am visiting another sound tech, I have a cd of one of our last shows and he wanted to hear it. (his cousin was the showcase). I am going to ask him to give his opinion about the sound.
                You guys are TERRIFIC!
                Thanks
                Ralph
                As the Wise Ole' drummer says... !:cool:

                Comment

                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ralphieboy View Post
                  Wow... some great help!
                  To answer Lopan's comment... no room behind the board for two and I don't have a clue how to adjust any sound on the board.
                  The sound guy is part of the family that owns the place (son in law)... and the lead guitar is the owner! LOL The sound guy is mediocre and he is there... and I am sure they are not looking to replace him.
                  So... my chore is to work closer with him and try to communicate as much as I can. What I need is another drummer to help on the sound or to play while I coach the sound guy on what to do with the drums sounds. (I would rather have another drummer or sound guy adjusting the board)
                  Question....When I send the sound board my signal... what does he get?
                  Is "his" signal affected by "my" monitor? Volume & mix?
                  If I turn up my volume on the PM-30, does he get louder? Or if I turn up the Module does "his" signal get louder? (incoming signal not his output)
                  I feel that no matter what volume I send to him... he is in total control and can limit my signal or sound output.
                  Today I am visiting another sound tech, I have a cd of one of our last shows and he wanted to hear it. (his cousin was the showcase). I am going to ask him to give his opinion about the sound.
                  You guys are TERRIFIC!
                  Thanks
                  Ralph
                  Ralph mate,
                  check out this

                  http://www.bose.com/controller?event...t=l1_m2_2b1_t1

                  Get one of these and you wont need to go thru the FOH
                  and everyone will hear you, and you could also leave the pm30 at home too.
                  It is expensive but i have demo'd my TD-20 with one and its awesome.

                  I have been using my own PA system for 5 years now as so many engineers stuffed up my sound playing Tabla.

                  IMHO suffing up the sound from a td12 is impossible, the sound guy probably just doesnt have you loud enough

                  OR

                  maybe the FOH system is crap.

                  I just bought some Yamaha stagepas 300 and 500 portable pa systems.
                  You should hear Vdrums through them. This is flat eq.
                  For the money there is nothing anywhere near this quality. Apparently Yamaha have been working with NEXO who make the incredible PS small pa range and the Yamaha stagepas range is so clean, loud and unreal bass for such small speakers.
                  This is with no eq at all.

                  http://www.musiciansfriend.com/produ...tem?sku=480938

                  GOOD LUCK.

                  tOM
                  ENLIGHTENMENT IS THE EGO'S BIGGEST DISAPPOINTMENT

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