Td-20 vs Superior C&V for recording?

[trevort]

Hello!

New to the forum. I just ordered a TD-20. I have a basic TD-3 set.
But, I did buy a Hart Snare.There largest one.So I want to expand on the kit.
To the Question: I was wondering,I have the Superior C&V and
I like it but, is there any reason I couldn't record with the
TD-20's sounds possibly using the Vexpressions? I want to simplify
my life. When using the C&V it sounds great but, It's a big up to do to run it.
Any recommendation's? I always hear people complain about the Roland sounds for recording. Are they right? Can anyone tell me of a positive experience using them in a recording situation? It would be nice to run out the multiples for further processing. I have 10 very good pre's. Vint.1073/x2,Api 512x2,Pacifica
x2,Focusrite 110x4,Neotekx2.Plus some nice outboard compressors.
Could they be manipulated to sound more authentic? I also have Drumagog
for replacement.
Any advice if possible.
Trevor

[Hercules]

Hi trevort,

Welcome - I'm fairly new to this forum too but can affirm that they're a great bunch to chat with.

- some of the inbuilt kits are a bit flat but there is great scope to customise them - if you get one of the Vex kit sets you will see what can be done to enhance the onboard kits and then customise to suit yourself (but remember that they don't all have to be turned up to 11 - dynamics makes all the difference)

re recording;
- if you get the levels right and add some subtle tonation and you're nearly there
- the standard that engineers like is to separate the kit parts, record dry (without effects) and mix wet (with effects)
- this avoids phase cancellation and allows the use of the (generally) higher quality studio effects in the mixdown phase
- it also allows means you don't have to re-record if you decide there's a bit too much effect on a track

Hope this helps

[trevort]

Hi trevort,

Welcome - I'm fairly new to this forum too but can affirm that they're a great bunch to chat with.

- some of the inbuilt kits are a bit flat but there is great scope to customise them - if you get one of the Vex kit sets you will see what can be done to enhance the on board kits and then customise to suit yourself (but remember that they don't all have to be turned up to 11 - dynamics makes all the difference)

re recording;
- if you get the levels right and add some subtle tonation and you're nearly there
- the standard that engineers like is to separate the kit parts, record dry (without effects) and mix wet (with effects)
- this avoids phase cancellation and allows the use of the (generally) higher quality studio effects in the mixdown phase
- it also allows means you don't have to re-record if you decide there's a bit too much effect on a track

Hope this helps

Thanks alot Hercules! Oh,Hercules!Hercules!(Sorry I couldn't resist.)
My thought was to use them dry (I could listen to them w/int. fx's).Record via sequence,Repair if needed,play back send them out individually,through
what I believe to a good tonal preamp(s)for each instrument.Record.I could them decide if I want to add analog compression or wait till mix down. Also to add effects @ mix down.I also have a PCM 81 I can use.other than plug ins.As far as mixing thats not a problem. I just wanted to know if anyone
can work with the sounds.As they are possibly with the vex.
Vs the software.
Thanks!

Trevor

[trevort]

Well , I just got the TD-20 and I'm not impressed with the sounds at all!
I can't see recording with them even with vex. So,question? Should I keep it
for it's brain to use Superior C&V(or2.0)? Is it the best to use for e-drumming?
And wouldn't it be best to run it on it's own computer with Solo for a host
then, run in sync w/audio via midi? I own the td-3 now. basic.

[Joe_K]

Well , I just got the TD-20 and I'm not impressed with the sounds at all!
I can't see recording with them even with vex. So,question? Should I keep it
for it's brain to use Superior C&V(or2.0)? Is it the best to use for e-drumming?
And wouldn't it be best to run it on it's own computer with Solo for a host
then, run in sync w/audio via midi? I own the td-3 now. basic.

Well, you certainly could keep it as a triggering device (it'll make a great one), though if you can return it, you'll save money getting a TD-12 instead. From a MIDI triggering point of view, I doubt you'll see any difference, unless its in the number of inputs (you don't need the audio outputs).

I concur about the TD-20 sounds. I wouldn't say "unimpressed", but you can spot the repeating samples in a recording pretty easy (depending on what is played), and that single-microphone kind of sound, especially cymbals (if that is important to you .. it is to me). It takes a hefty library to give flexibility and control over all those individual microphone samples, plus all the extra samples to keep the repeats from being obvious, that will make a recording sound anything like it was done with an acoustic (at least to acoustic drummers and mixing engineers ... but the population at large? They don't care. But this is about what you want to hear first).

You don't have to run C&V or Superior on its own computer and record audio on another, unless your DAW is just overworked or you are recording lots of other instruments/plugins simultaneously. However, that will work, though I'd still record MIDI on the computer where you host the drum sampler (MIDI is already going into it), then you can import that MIDI onto your mixing system and still use it to replay the drum sampler when you render to final audio.

There's lots of ways to go about it. The straight forward way is to simply host the plugin inside your DAW and record MIDI. Solo is great for just launching the plugin and jamming.

[stickinthemud]

Wondering, have you tried any of the VEX sets yet?

[trevort]

Joe_K,
Thanks for your advise. I will say "not impressed" based upon the fact that this is the "industry standard" to which all is compaired. I believe it is based upon the brain more than the sounds though. To me it sounds like a slightly better than drum machine. If you look at the 2.0 Superior you will see they mention that they use multiple samples so it doesn't repeat the same sample.It sounds truer! This is the key I believe Roland is lacking. If this co. that makes Superior can make a hardware piece(or in co-op) that can function this way, Roland is in trouble(unless involved). I think it could be done, And possibly will. A fully functional piece of hardware with a software capible architecture .
I just can't wait! What does it cost? Me first???
TT

[trevort]

Wondering, have you tried any of the VEX sets yet?

No, but based on what I've heard,I don't believe it's a big improvement (like some might like) compaired to an acoustic set or the sample stuff, which I
think is okay. But, I want over the top drums that are as real as it can get.
I still have my acoustic. I won't sell it until I can "truely" replace it.

[Joe_K]

If you look at the 2.0 Superior you will see they mention that they use multiple samples so it doesn't repeat the same sample.It sounds truer!

Absolutely! And in the interest of full disclosure, I was the one who shot the video at winter NAMM '08 that you might have seen through their website. I was an independant contractor for Toontrack at that show. Superior 2 will be the bomb, in terms of sound, ease of use AND flexibility. Of course, I dig dfh Superior anyway, because I don't mind doing the leg work in Sonar to mix it. But to each his own, I'm just that way.

If a drummer can't get dfh Superior or EZdrummer to work .... they should ask their guitar player to do it for them.

[SuperPuss]

Hmmm.... I must say I personally love the capabilities of the Roland TD12 and TD20 modules for recording. With a little tweaking of the module and some good engineering, it is entirely possible to achieve great results. You have some great preamps there and I'm sure you know what you are doing as an engineer so I'd say with some VEX packs, you could achieve great things from the TD20.

Here's a pre release preview of my newest SuperPuss song 'Remember'. I am aiming for a mid 70's Abbey Road warmth for this track and the drums are from my TD12 with one of my own kits.
Here's the song preview -
Remember (Pre release version)

[trevort]

Absolutely! And in the interest of full disclosure, I was the one who shot the video at winter NAMM '08 that you might have seen through their website. I was an independant contractor for Toontrack at that show. Superior 2 will be the bomb, in terms of sound, ease of use AND flexibility. Of course, I dig dfh Superior anyway, because I don't mind doing the leg work in Sonar to mix it. But to each his own, I'm just that way.

If a drummer can't get dfh Superior or EZdrummer to work .... they should ask their guitar player to do it for them.

Funny,I am a guitar player! I do all the tracks.As far as the set up I can get it to work fine for the most part but, on occasion my host closes on me? DP. I have a aging computer,Mac dual 2.0 ghz with 2.5 ram. I'm not sure if getting 4.0 gig would solve the problem. I've been mixing out of the box and have thought of mixing back in the box. So, it would require more plugs(UAD-x2) and this would possibly be
a problem in terms of how much I could use. That's why I thought of
using another computer. Any thought's how that would work?If?
+ I can imagine that 2.0 is going to be pretty large.
TT

[trevort]

Hmmm.... I must say I personally love the capabilities of the Roland TD12 and TD20 modules for recording. With a little tweaking of the module and some good engineering, it is entirely possible to achieve great results. You have some great preamps there and I'm sure you know what you are doing as an engineer so I'd say with some VEX packs, you could achieve great things from the TD20.

Here's a pre release preview of my newest SuperPuss song 'Remember'. I am aiming for a mid 70's Abbey Road warmth for this track and the drums are from my TD12 with one of my own kits.
Here's the song preview -
Remember (Pre release version)

Sounds pretty convincing to me.I must admit. I liked to hear it when finished. I like progressive music. But, I also think that Superior is just a little
more convinsing to my ears. My hope is that when roland releases there
expansion card that It'll bring it closer to that of the superior or to a degree.
I think a sample engine that could load something along the lines of the Superior stuff would be cool . But, then i might be dreaming.
Good work!
TT

[SuperPuss]

Sounds pretty convincing to me.I must admit. I liked to hear it when finished. I like progressive music. But, I also think that Superior is just a little
more convinsing to my ears. My hope is that when roland releases there
expansion card that It'll bring it closer to that of the superior or to a degree.
I think a sample engine that could load something along the lines of the Superior stuff would be cool . But, then i might be dreaming.
Good work!
TT

Thanks Trevort. It looks like I have found the female vocalist I've been looking for so this song (and the rest of my new album) should be finished very soon.
I still have yet to find out how much more I'll be able to to with a TD20 but mine should be here any day now so I guess I'll find out
I do agree with you that some of the sample libraries available now sound pretty amazing and I am eagerly awaiting the offerings of the TD20 expansion too. For my purposes though, the TD12 and 20 are more than adequate to produce realistic and convincing drums on my songs.
The TD20 is also four to five years older technology wise so I guess it stands to reason that some of the newest software based sample packages are going to have an edge in some areas. I imagine Roland are hard at work creating something that will be even better though....at least I hope so!!

[Joe_K]

Hmmm.... I must say I personally love the capabilities of the Roland TD12 and TD20 modules for recording. With a little tweaking of the module and some good engineering, it is entirely possible to achieve great results. You have some great preamps there and I'm sure you know what you are doing as an engineer so I'd say with some VEX packs, you could achieve great things from the TD20.

Here's a pre release preview of my newest SuperPuss song 'Remember'. I am aiming for a mid 70's Abbey Road warmth for this track and the drums are from my TD12 with one of my own kits.
Here's the song preview -
Remember (Pre release version)

Yes, you have a good mix and the tone is good.

The things I hear, which is why I switched over from recording with my module, are the near identical sample repeating for the ride cymbal and the stark single microphone sound of the cymbals in the stereo spread. After about 4 years of module use myself, and 1 1/2 years of sample library use, those are the things that jump out at me most. Going back a couple years to before I had sample libraries, I was posting about recording tricks I was trying so I could emulate a multi-microphone type of sound just for the HiHat from my module (basically, trying to add a stereo overhead kind of sound to the close sound), so this isn't something I just read about after I got into computer samples. Its why I got into computer samples.

However, you can't debate sound and "win" really. Somebody could say those are exactly the reasons they LIKE the sound. I don't know. Very few will even notice, so its really just about what you like, have become tired with, etc.

Good luck with your recordings! You are very talented.

[SuperPuss]

Yes, you have a good mix and the tone is good.

The things I hear, which is why I switched over from recording with my module, are the near identical sample repeating for the ride cymbal and the stark single microphone sound of the cymbals in the stereo spread. After about 4 years of module use myself, and 1 1/2 years of sample library use, those are the things that jump out at me most. Going back a couple years to before I had sample libraries, I was posting about recording tricks I was trying so I could emulate a multi-microphone type of sound just for the HiHat from my module (basically, trying to add a stereo overhead kind of sound to the close sound), so this isn't something I just read about after I got into computer samples. Its why I got into computer samples.

However, you can't debate sound and "win" really. Somebody could say those are exactly the reasons they LIKE the sound. I don't know. Very few will even notice, so its really just about what you like, have become tired with, etc.

Good luck with your recordings! You are very talented.

Thanks Joe
I totally agree with you about the subjectivity of sound and recording methods. I also understand and agree with you on the ride cymbal thing. In fact, the ride cymbals are probably the one thing I would like to see some significant improvements on with the expansion card.
Like you, I have experimented extensively with multi mic simulations and have actually used multi mics through studio monitors to re-record samples on some occasions.
For some of my songs, I like the 'in your face' direct sound from my module and on others, I prefer a room sound and use either reverb / delay with less direct sound or use my mic'ing the monitors in stereo method.
I am still tempted to get myself the Ocean Way library as another pallet option for recording but even with that, there'll still be many occasions where I'll use module sounds.