Aren't the module's effects good enough???

[drumlogic]

I am currently trying to record a VERY SERIOUS demo. I am using a G4 mac and a td-10exp. The program I am using is digital performer 3 and Waves plugin effects. The wave plugin effects are $1000 by themselves. I have become very accustomed with the effects/compressors of my td-10exp. To get a very professional sounding demo, should I send dry signals from the module and use the waves plugins to mimic the effects I like from my td10-exp and in hopes that I'll find better results becuse the "quality" of the waves plugin's effects/compressors are technically better than my built effects in my module. I guess my real question is are the td10-exp effects/compressors as good as pro plugins???


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-Drumlogic, V-session, Visulite cymbals, (2)Mackie srm-450, bbe 482 sonic maximizer, spd-20

[szvook]

Originally posted by drumlogic:
should I send dry signals from the module and use the waves plugins to mimic the effects

Yes

I guess my real question is are the td10-exp effects/compressors as good as pro plugins???

No... and outboard signal/effects processors are one better.



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Outboard gear: Focusrite Compounder, Drawmer MX-30, BBE-482, Aphex C-104, Behringer T1951 4-Band Parametric Tube EQ, Lexicon MPX1, Mackie 1402-VLZ, (Crown K2 amp & Cerwin Vega V-253 speakers = 1600 watts @ 4 ohms continues power, peak at 3000 watts) and Sony MDR-V700DJ headphones.

[Steveo the Devo]

Ditto

[Daveb]

Agree with szvook, and also you will have much more scope whwn you get down to mixing.

ie if you record with effects the mix will always have those effects on even if you decide you would like a change during the final mixing.

Go dry add later it makes sence

[Marc.]

Post Title : "Aren't the module's effects good enough???"

They're good enough for me.

[Marc.]

[quote]Originally posted by c. jude:

Hey Marc. ... thanks for contributing.

Actually, the response immediately followed and was aimed at puttenvr's as usual Roland-bashing post, of which has now mysteriously disappeared.

[puttenvr]

Here it is:

So you (a long time ago: me too) bought a Roland machine with built-in effects from which we now say: a personal computer with plug-in is better?

[Boingo]

Anyone who has had an opportunity to try outboard effects units with any real quality behind them seems to agree they are better than the built in effects (I know, that's an understatement). Why be surprised or pissed? Look at the cost of decent effects, EQ, compression... units. I think they were looking at a price target which is already incredibly high and offered a compromise. Weather you think they are greedy and could have given us better or should be charging less is irrelevant. Their sales indicate they made the right decision.

They are good enough for Marc. Good for him. For general playing and practicing, they are ok for me too. I have a low end Lexicon and only occasionally use it. I have some better effects on a hard disk recorder also. I have heard the difference. For recording, I doubt I will use the Roland effects.

Drumlogic is looking to make a serious demo. He definitely should use outboard effects.

Putt requires better effects than the TD-10 is cabable of giving. To pay for a unit with the added effects and then turn them off seemed dumb. So he went with ddrum. He also likes their samples more than Roland's. He made the right decision for him. He is baffled as to why some of you would buy a unit with effects and never use them. I think he continues to make his feelings known to make sure others don't experience what he did. That seems legitimite enough to me since there are new members all the time. Some people like the other Roland features enough, without the effects, to make it the right choice for them. Putt should accept that. I think he does but just likes to needle Marc. and others. That seems to be working too.

Here's a laugh. My wife bought a nice Fender amp. The effects on it are quite good but you can't send the signal with effects to the FOH. So, to get the amp and FOH effects she has to use the Lexicon with a DB and bypass the amps effects when she does live gigs. She's pissed and doesn't understand why it's like this. I tell her that when you record, or play a decent venue, Fender assumes you will use better quality effects then what you get bundled in your amp. Sorta like the TD I think.

[Marc.]

Originally posted by drumlogic:
...I guess my real question is are the td10-exp effects/compressors as good as pro plugins???

Previous posts declare negative.

Now my question? It seems there are two categories of plugins as per the definition of the term "plugin". There are software & there are hardware plugins. Are there any important issues to consider between the two, and what about costs?

Harold, chime in anytime.

[puttenvr]

Nice spoken, Boingo. I mean it.

[drumlogic]

Excellent points. I pretty much knew that the td-10exp effects werent as good as pro-plugins(waves), but wasnt sure if it would make a world of difference. But I guess when your trying to do a serious demo, like I am now, every little bit helps. Not to get off topic, but is it really necessary to use outboard gear(hardware) for normal gigging. I tend to find that espescially in my particular style of music rock/punk/metal, the subtle differences between two similar sounds is lost in the live sound of a band. What do you think?

..I bet szvook is burning a hole through his keyboard right now!

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-Drumlogic, V-session, Visulite cymbals, (2)Mackie srm-450, bbe 482 sonic maximizer, spd-20

[Blades]

Here's my $.02 (actually, more like $1...kinda long).

The effects, as others have stated are not "as good" as the "pro" effects you can get, like in some outboard gear and some plugins. Some of the decision has to do with the tradeoffs.

For example, as we know, the plug-ins are expensive. There's tradeoff #1. #2 comes with "What type of music are you doing"? If you are doing dense balsy rock where the drums are effected but also heavily accompanied in the mix so that the effects are there but not able to be heard in their own right, then you may get away with the "inferior" effects.

Another trade off is performance. Some systems simply don't have enough left in them to run yet another plug-in and if I had to choose a high-quality effect, I'd generally prefer that the vocal be treated with it rather than the drums.

I have a Yamaha DSP Factory, sw1000xg sound card, and Sonar. So, I have a lot of options. Both sound cards have hardware DSP that is somewhat better than the vdrum stuff. I can route whatever I want through them. Sonar can use whatever DirectX plugs you want and even some of the ones that come with it are pretty good. I did a "shootout" between some different hardware and software reverbs and their effects on both drums and vocals. I did the test "blind" and found that I actually preferred the "DSP Factory" drum room over most of the plug-ins.

One option that I find is useful is to:
record the drums seperated to tracks as: Kick, Snare, Stereo Pair of Toms, Stereo Pair of crashes, ride, hi-hat. Then I mix (in software) the hat, ride, and cymbals, pointing them all to a stereo pair output on the DSPFactory. I sometimes also run another stereo pair of audio as all of the drums (midi) played back through the amibience in the td-10 brain but only record the ambience part to another stereo pair and then mix that to a stereo pair on the dspf with either the toms or the cymbals, depending on the EQ settings I prefer for the tune. This saves me from having to use one of my hardware effects busses or from having to use plugins, which I don't like to do with the drums, since the dspf has compression and EQ on every channel, which I want to have BEFORE the effects in the signal chain...can't use a plug-in unless I want it to come before the DSPF channel strip, which doesn't make sinse...I want to compress and EQ the dry drum and then effect THAT, not the other way around. This way I can get the "room" added in with the drums with no sacrifice of effects busses or processor "time".

There are SO many ways you can go about it. Just remember what the Beatles had to work with, or even some of the 70s super groups. They would have killed for reverb like we have in the td-10 brain...I know that doesn't excuse anything, but it does make you wonder how much effort we put into trying to get better sound when what we really want is a better song <g>.

Anyway, in short (as if), I'd say don't discount the built-in stuff completely, even if it is inferior...There are still many good uses for it.

redbrick www.mp3.com/subtle_nuance
A current favorite drum sound of mine is the one that is in Imperial Drag's album. Amazingly big and "dry" and ambient all at the same time. Very 70s rock sounding.

[szvook]

Originally posted by drumlogic:
Not to get off topic, but is it really necessary to use outboard gear(hardware) for normal gigging. I tend to find that espescially in my particular style of music rock/punk/metal, the subtle differences between two similar sounds is lost in the live sound of a band. What do you think?

..I bet szvook is burning a hole through his keyboard right now!

AAARRGGG !!!!!

I found that using outboard gear for gigs is more important then studio work for sure, especially when it comes to the venues sound system's form gig to gig.

As far as the sound differences whilst performing with other musicians/instruments (or at least having the material available to practice to), this is where working/practicing with the other sounds plays a factor and tweaking the sounds within your module will help to identify individual/group sounds better.

After using/applying outboard gear to bring out the dynamics of the sounds, editing the sounds further within the module should do the trick to create the subtle differences between two or more sounds. Just tweak them a bit more to separate them.



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Outboard gear: Focusrite Compounder, Drawmer MX-30, BBE-482, Aphex C-104, Behringer T1951 4-Band Parametric Tube EQ, Lexicon MPX1, Mackie 1402-VLZ, (Crown K2 amp & Cerwin Vega V-253 speakers = 1600 watts @ 4 ohms continues power, peak at 3000 watts) and Sony MDR-V700DJ headphones.

[Arriguy]

I think the only thing important is that, if they are good enough for you, then they are good enough.