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Reduce Latency - Midi Capture From TD25 to Cakewalk/EZDrummer2

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  • Reduce Latency - Midi Capture From TD25 to Cakewalk/EZDrummer2

    Hi there - did lots of searching but everyone's setup is a little different. I've been recording midi into cakewalk and using EZDrummer 2 as the the instrument to render the sounds. One of my issues is latency which ends up resulting in a lot of clean up post capture. I'm on Windows 10, Dell Precision 5530, i7 - 2.8 GHz, 32 G Ram..

    I've been using WASAPI as the driver mode. Open to any tips but my specific questions

    - Should I be using ASIO4ALL? I tried it and didn't work - would have to try again to give more specifics about what happened, but eventually I gave up as I ready it wasn't always supported
    - Are there any settings in EZDrummer I should be tweaking to improve, or is it not really relevant in the midi capture process? Could be adding latency?
    - Would having some type of external device (midi interface?) improve any latency issues, and if so what do people recommend? I I get a device - does the USB from the TD25 go do the interface and then interface to PC via USB?
    - Any settings within the TD25 module I should look at?

    Thanks in advance

  • #2
    The td25 should have its own asio driver in the control panel. When choosing the driver choose that one and not wasapi otherwise you will have high latency. If it is like the td30 driver you can drag the slider down to lower buffer settings. You may be able to get to 64 with you pc. I think you will still suffer some latency unless you use a dedicated audio interface though
    Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

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    • #3
      If you wanna reduce latency to zero whilst recording, don't use the software instrument whilst recording the MIDI.

      - Record the MIDI listening to the module.

      Then after - bounce the MIDI thru the software instrument to create as many audio tracks as you need (stereo or every instrument)

      ie. (but using your software instrument in #4 rather then the module)


      Stages 1-4.fw.png
      *** Never buy a module without MIDI IN ***
      Yamaha & Roland modules. DTX,TM-2, EC-10, EC10m, SP-404. Multi12. TrapKat. ControlPads. Octapad, SamplePad, Wavedrum. Handsonic. Dynacord RhythmStick. MPC. Paiste 2002/Signatures. Cajons. Djembes. Darbuka. Windsynth. MIDI Bass. Tenori-on. Zoom ARQ. Synths. Ukes.

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      • #4
        Huge help from both of you - OK, I have seen the TD 25 as a driver in Cakewalk when I plug in, but haven't tried that... I'll take a look again and see if that helps. electrodrummer - very much appreciate the diagrams. I think I'm doing 1 through 3 above but want to understand a few of your comments
        1. "don't use the software instrument whilst recording"... so you're saying, take Ezdrummer out of the mix (this makes sense)? Capture the midi directly in my DAW (Cakewalk) - but I need some instrument or midi track do do that capture right? I'll have to look at that and play around with it. But I have been listening through the module while I play with the click or base track playing out of my DAW through the module that I play along with (we're doing cover tunes right now).
        2. In your diagram you show an (optional) intermediary midi and audio interface - is it best practice for best results to have a midi interface since I'm just using the whatever is currently onboard my laptop? Happy to invest in an external device if it helps (any recommendations?
        I was confused by stage 4 about going back to the module but I now see your note about using software instrument instead which is what I do. I should be able to just map it to the EZDrummer instrument once I've got the midi captured. I tend to keep everything as midi throughout the mixing/production process until I render out so I can continue to play with drum sounds, levels, fx, etc.

        Thanks again for your quick reply.
        Scott

        (our work to date Kelly and the Ding Dongs)

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        • #5
          Good idea electrodrummer. I used to do that years ago and totally forgot about it. That was in the days I had a 16.8.2 desk and monitored from there my ddrum4 while recording midi. I could also listen to the track from the DAW which was fed into the desk. The only down side is maybe inspiration as you don’t get to play the good sounds. It would get you by until you get a low latency audio interface. Do try my earlier comment though as you may be able to get latency lower with the correct asio driver and dropping the buffers.
          Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

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          • #6
            mkok - so I just gave this a try but no luck. I had the TD25 set as the input device, was able to adjust buffer etc... but when I insert a midi track and try to record - nothing... I can capture the midi by using the EZDrummer instrument like I did before but the latency is noticeable and distracting, difficult to get timing right. I'll dig around the cakewalk forms to see why I can't capture midi straight from the TD25, but when I posed this same question there, I was sent down the path I was already on which is using WASAPI drivers if ASIO4DLL didn't work.

            Any suggestions if any familiarity with getting Midi straight from the Roland Module into Cakewalk is appreciated.

            thanks again

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            • #7
              Sorry - I think I misspoke to soon on a couple fronts.
              1. There is no "driver" mode for the TD 25. Yes I've always had the TD 25 selected as my input device but only driver modes listed below.
                1. WDM/KS
                2. WASAPI Exclusive
                3. WASAPI Shared
                4. ASIO
                5. MME 32-bit
              2. If I pick ASIO from above - nothing works, no audio out, nothing in.
              3. I CAN get straight MIDI via the TD25 - I just had to put it on the right/corresponding midi channel - however, still high latency
              I went back to trying to install ASIO4All and maybe have made some progress with that, but lots of drop outs and instability issues.

              If it's easier to just buy a midi interface that works well with the Roland products and reduces latency - that's probably the way I'd like to go. Any thoughts or suggestions on devices to consider?


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              • #8
                One thing to get straight. It is not the midi that is causing the latency. It is the audio side. The midi should be fine. Roland modules send midi over the usb interface fine. If midi is showing delayed in the editor then it’s probably something else.

                I thought the audio side of the td25 would be the same as a td30 and would have an icon in the control panel where you can change buffer settings. Is the td25 set to vendor mode? I don’t recommend wasapi or any other windows drivers as latency is far too high. You can try asio4all which can be ok but I really thought the td25 would have its own asio driver as the td30 has. The manual seems to indicate it would.

                I’m not up on audio interfaces at the moment but there are quite a few in the 100 range from steinberg, zoom, focusrite that would give you better latency than trying to use the td25 inbuilt audio interface.
                Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

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                • #9
                  Here is the windows 10 driver for the Td-25. If you haven’t downloaded it I would start here. Disclaimer I have a TD-17 and a Mac. I’m pretty sure a good audio interface is recommended by a lot of smart folks on this forum. However the Roland Drivers seem to also get a good review by folks.

                  TD-17KVX (Snare = PD-125BK, Tom 1 = PDX-100, Tom 2 (Head zone only) = PDX-12, Tom 3 = PDX-12, Tom 4 (Rim zone of Tom 2 split via female splitter from drumsplitter.com) = PDX-8, CY4 (Aux) = CY-5, Combo VEX Series 3 And Designer. Alesis Strike Multipad with Alesis RealHat pedal and Boss FS-6.

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                  • #10
                    Hi everyone - just confirming
                    - I do have the TD25 driver installed
                    - I do have the TD25 set to vendor mode
                    - I have selected the TD25 as the input/midi device in Cakewalk, but "Driver" mode doesn't list anything specific to TD25 (unless the ASIO mode is what I should select, although I can't get this to work without ASIO4ALL, so I seem to have no choice here)
                    - I'm unclear on whether audio interface is playing any role here, but perhaps it does through the playback while recording - example... the midi is coming into my laptop, audio is then playing back out of my laptop... the original audio file I am playing along with and the midi notes cakewalk is capturing. There is delay between what I hear from my module (TD25) and what cakewalk is playing back

                    If an audio interface will help here - happy to invest - perhaps some clarity on the connect? Does the USB out from TD25 go into interface? Assuming no.. so is it just the PC audio output?

                    Thanks again


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                    • #11
                      oh... I just found this.. there's a TD25 app installed assuming it came with the driver... so should I be changing these settings?
                      td_app.PNG

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                      • #12
                        Definitely - set the buffer as low as it will go. 64 samples or less.
                        ATV aDrums, ATV aD5, eDRUMin, Presonus Quantum 2, SD3

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                        • #13
                          OK - so I did make some progress.. I had a heck of a time getting the ASIO drivers to work. Cakewalk would hang constantly - turns out I had to uninstall both ASIO4ALL and part of my soundcard (RealTek) drivers that had their own ASIO... once I did that I could select TD25 for both INPUT and OUTPUT... then when I play my audio file in cakewalk to play along with, the audio actual transmits back to the module through the USB - don't need audio out from the PC. The only tentative problem right now is as soon as I start turning buffer down, I get audio drop outs, playback stops or choppyness... so if in the end I can't get lower buffer/latency, I don't know if I gain anything.

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                          • #14
                            If you can’t get the latency down without glitching then you have hit the limit of the td25 with your computer. As mentioned earlier the Roland audio interface capability is not great. At least you got the driver working. Have a search for windows tweaks for audio as there may be some that help. Check out power settings as these can sometimes throttle a pc. They should be set to high performance. My old i7 920 overclocked to 3gig managed 64 buffers on the td30 driver (same control panel as yours which I knew you should have) and worked fine although buffer size is not everything. My actual audio interface at 64 buffers had much lower latency than the td30.
                            Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

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