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Addendum to Alesis DM's - 'entry level e-kits'

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  • Addendum to Alesis DM's - 'entry level e-kits'

    I've been thinking about this whole subject of 'entry-level e-kit' a bit further...

    What I've been wondering is:
    Why does a beginning e-drum aspirant absolutely needs the whole kit, and then some, at once, just to get started?


    Get the beginner:
    - a reasonably big snare pad
    - a hihat on it's on stand
    - a kick pad, like the kd-9 - ........(the absolute foundation of drumming: Kick, Snare, Hats.)

    - maybe a crashable ride-cymbal, a decent 3-zone, optional
    - add in crashes at a later point, same goes for toms.
    ...... (your beloved brat don't starts off by playing constant fill-ins, over eight different toms)



    The pricepoint: - ......(you'll need hardware and a module, but if I just quickly and roughly estimate second-hand prices...)

    - $50 - 80 (kd-8) or: about $120 (kd-9)
    - $170 - 200 (vh-11)
    - $175 - 250 (pd-120/125)
    - $160 - 250 (cy-15r)


    So you're somewhere between $550 - 780. That's about 1x to 1.5x the price of a new DM-7X ($499). But you will have much nicer components, that will form a viable part of your kit even when you upgrade, and that'll last you.

    At the pricepoint of the DM-Lite, I gladly take a used Yamaha DTXplorer, thank you!
    (I could've done this little calculation with Yamaha parts as well - it might amount to the same thing. "Potayto, potahto!")


    Of course, the old wisdom of 'buying module first' and 'buy the most module you can afford' applies here - used td-9's seem to be popular!



    HTH

    (On another note: About the very subject of what exactly makes a 'good entry-level module', we might could have our own, lenghty thread/discussion, I reckon!)





    -----------------------
    MODERATORS:
    Would any of you do me a favour, and move this post to show as a reply in the 'Alesis DM7X Session'-thread? I've tried to post there for the longest time, and always got a stupid 'JSON-parse-error'!


    -----------------------
    Last edited by hairmetal-81; 11-13-13, 03:45 PM.


    "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

    http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

  • #2
    Hmmm...you did forget to add rack/stand, throne and pedal prices to the mix...but really...this is as subjective as any "what kit should I buy" or "what do I need" or "what's the best" thread. Lots of variables here. What one really "needs" is to be comfortable with any purchase that fits their budget...needs...and even wants. The "One Size/Solution Fits All" mentality does not necessarily apply here.
    8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
    http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by fulrmr(Daniel) View Post
      Hmmm...you did forget to add rack/stand, throne and pedal prices to the mix...but really...this is as subjective as any "what kit should I buy" or "what do I need" or "what's the best" thread. Lots of variables here. What one really "needs" is to be comfortable with any purchase that fits their budget...needs...and even wants. The "One Size/Solution Fits All" mentality does not necessarily apply here.
      But the "One size fits many" approach is what has to be done on a large scale production line. Roland or Yamaha cant afford to offer a "customized" entry level kit. No one can. To make the kits cheap they have the make their money over the long run, not on each individual piece and part of the kit.

      If someone was to make a simple 4 piece kit with hi-hat, ride, and crash it could be a cool beginner kit. Would it be a lot cheaper than the standard 5 piece kits that are out today? No, not really. Adding another gum rubber pad costs less than $75 to the overall kit.

      I think most people look at a beginner kit as the simple 5 piece (two rack/one floor) and don't want anything less.
      I think my work is done here.

      Comment


      • #4
        Having been a beginner recently, I wanted a "full" kit (meaning 3 toms), and didn't have an interest in a cobbled together kind of thing, my early attempts were an HD-3, and a DM-6 (precursor to the DM-7). The DM-6 sounded like a toy to me, I even performed on it, it had too many problems for my taste, but in a pinch it was usable.

        Other than the toyish sounds, the DM-6 had a switch for a kick pedal (no velocity sensitivity), and the ride was layered, hit it soft and you got the edge, hit it hard and you got the bell, I never got used to that, I performed on it a few times and had that bell sound ring out a few times when I didn't want it to.

        Other than that it was decent to play on, I liked that it had a light feel to it, you didn't have to hit it hard, seemed like that would help beginners. It's dynamic range was limited though, it would end up holding you back once you wanted to do things like ghost notes and accent patterns.

        I hear more recent versions of the DM-6 (and hopefully the DM7) have a real velocity sensitive kick. I ended up buying the DMP (Alesis kick pad), which the DM6 module supported (and ships with later versions of the DM-6 kits) and that fixed the kick up nicely. The layered ride I just learned to live with.

        Once I bought the HD-3 I never looked back. Only reason I upgraded from there (to the TD-9) was the module sounds were too limited to do live playing for me (the HD-3 brain is not tweakable, the sounds it has aren't bad actually, but you can't change the kits).

        All the options that played "well enough" for me were closer to $1,000 for the kit.
        Mini-kit: TD-9 + Alesis Control Pad + Alesis Sample Pad + PDX-6 snare
        Micro-kit: Handsonic HPD-20 + an old pair of hands.
        Speakers: QSC-K10 "thumper", DBR-10 "little thumper"

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Tommy_D View Post

          But the "One size fits many" approach is what has to be done on a large scale production line. Roland or Yamaha cant afford to offer a "customized" entry level kit. No one can. To make the kits cheap they have the make their money over the long run, not on each individual piece and part of the kit.

          If someone was to make a simple 4 piece kit with hi-hat, ride, and crash it could be a cool beginner kit. Would it be a lot cheaper than the standard 5 piece kits that are out today? No, not really. Adding another gum rubber pad costs less than $75 to the overall kit.

          I think most people look at a beginner kit as the simple 5 piece (two rack/one floor) and don't want anything less.
          True..but I think HM was more concerned about what the consumer can afford and need rather than what the Big names can and cant afford. I believe he is suggesting instead of getting a cookie cutter kit off the shelf...one should look at their individual needs and possibly get more for the money in quality and use......by purchasing separately just the core of the things one would use to hone one's skills. This way (if you shop right)you may get better quality gear which you can add to later should you want to as your skills progress. However....for the individual...One style of kit is not always what each person needs...or even wants...it's just what they offer so folks think that they have no other choices...that's why I commented on it's subjectivity.
          8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
          http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by fulrmr(Daniel) View Post
            I believe he is suggesting instead of getting a cookie cutter kit off the shelf...one should look at their individual needs and possibly get more for the money in quality and use......by purchasing separately just the core of the things one would use to hone one's skills. This way (if you shop right)you may get better quality gear which you can add to later should you want to as your skills progress.
            You summed up in two sentences, what yours truly needed nearly a whole book for! Hehehe....
            "Start with the core" - Yeah, that sentence has the right kind of 'advisory quality'-sound to it!

            "Start with the core kids, start with the core...."


            However....for the individual...One style of kit is not always what each person needs...or even wants...it's just what they offer so folks think that they have no other choices...that's why I commented on it's subjectivity.
            I'm not disagreeing in the first place that further down the road, each individual has different needs. ....Four-piece bebop-jazz kit? Not for the speed-metaller seeking that elusive 'double-bass monster'!

            But the foundation is the same! - snare, bassdrum, hats... maybe a ride-cymbal.

            There is the occasional deviation to this, but not so much at a 'beginners stage.... Keith Moon had no use for a hihat most of the time.... Phil Rudd, on the other hand, was relying solely on hats, but had not setup a ride-cymbal!

            A bassdrum and a snare they had both! ....and I haven't seen too many drumkits without snares! :-)

            Last edited by hairmetal-81; 11-15-13, 12:54 AM.


            "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

            http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

            Comment


            • #7
              Perhaps I'm still not understanding what you think people should do. Buy the kits all as individual parts and put it together yourself? That would cost a lot more money to do than buying a pre-made kit.

              Lets say, for example, you get a basic set up of TD-11, KD-9, PDX-100, CY-5/FD-8 combo, and a CY13R. Thats module, bass, snare, hi-hat, and ride/crash. That's about as basic as a kit can get. You will need a rack as well to mount the pads, so lets throw a MDS-4 in there as well.

              MDS-4 Rack: $220
              TD-11 module: $500
              KD-9 bass: $200
              PDX-100 Snare: $200
              CY-5/FD-8 combo: $110/$150
              CY-13R Ride/crash: $240
              Total: $1,620

              You can go on to Sweetwater right now and buy a TD-11KV (all mesh pads (5 piece kit with crash and ride)) for $1599. Why would anyone go with the first option? If you were penny pinching you could get the TD-11k for $999. Yeah you get rubber toms and CY-8 cymbals, but you get a more full rounded kit than the first option for less than 2/3rd's the price.
              I think my work is done here.

              Comment


              • #8
                Thanks Tommy!

                [QUOTEPerhaps I'm still not understanding what you think people should do.[/quote]

                'Buy quality' & 'Buy used'.


                Buy the kits all as individual parts and put it together yourself? That would cost a lot more money to do than buying a pre-made kit.
                Sadly so, yes.


                Lets say, for example, you get a basic set up of TD-11, KD-9, PDX-100, CY-5/FD-8 combo, and a CY13R. Thats module, bass, snare, hi-hat, and ride/crash. That's about as basic as a kit can get. You will need a rack as well to mount the pads, so lets throw a MDS-4 in there as well.
                Now wouldn't THAT be a setup you'll want to start off? Awesome!


                MDS-4 Rack: $220
                TD-11 module: $500
                KD-9 bass: $200
                PDX-100 Snare: $200
                CY-5/FD-8 combo: $110/$150
                CY-13R Ride/crash: $240
                Total: $1,620
                These are new-condition prices, yes?
                Let's re-do your list by basing it on secondhand prices...


                You can go on to Sweetwater right now and buy a TD-11KV (all mesh pads (5 piece kit with crash and ride)) for $1599. Why would anyone go with the first option?
                Good question!
                ...Because they get better quality components ...maybe?

                While the one attribute I've heard in the last few years was ...erm... 'unfavourable' price-performance-ratio, I'm shocked right now, that the individual parts seem to be even steeper compared to the whole TD-15 KV kit.
                Eeek!


                If you were penny pinching you could get the TD-11k for $999.
                Yeah you get rubber toms and CY-8 cymbals, but you get a more full rounded kit than the first option for less than 2/3rd's the price.
                I don't know, Tommy...
                Just by reading on the forum, I wouldn't exactly call the CY-8 a 'component you wouldn't want to ditch as soon as possible'.
                Yes, your first example was about a third more expensive, but you don't get rubber-toms and cheapish cymbals, that you'll have to upgrade soon. I'm almost inclined to say, the TD-11k example might not be a good one.



                Note:
                I apologize to pluck your reply apart like I just did, but I wanted to make sure, you'll understand me.

                Greets


                "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Yes, perhaps the second idea of a TD-11k does have some crappy components to it, but it it still $600 cheaper than the TD-11KV. That's almost a 40% reduction in cost.

                  As for better components, the only thing you get that may be considered "better" in the "buy individual pieces" was the PDX-100. I suppose that is better than a PDX-8 for a snare, but with the cost savings you get by purchasing the kit, you get 3 toms and another crash. It just makes sense to live with the kit and if you want to upgrade the snare pad, you turn the PDX-8 in to a 4th tom.

                  You can't compare used prices of individual pieces with buying a completely new kit. You would have to compare apples to apples: Both new, or both used.
                  I think my work is done here.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I am not yet giving up, I will stay stubborn and persistent!


                    I will go ahead and put 500 dollars in your hand!
                    You will have my blessing to go out and spend it on a drum module!

                    Question:
                    What would you get yourself, if faced upon the condition, that:

                    a) ...you can only buy new?
                    b) ...you have to go with something used?


                    "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                    http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Frankly...Used or DIY is still the cheapest option for quality pads...even cymbals depending on the module you build for(even if you have someone build it for you). If not DIY...then I would get a few quality pads from Diamond drums rather than "Cookie Cutter brand options". Most beginners can do with a nice 4 piece kit....then add to it later from the same custom shop or DIYer. I'm all for buying the best once rather than constantly having to upgrade. Yeah..yeah...I know...I "re-build" my kits all the time...but that's not because I have to because of crappy gear...it's just because that's what I do.
                      8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
                      http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by hairmetal-81 View Post
                        I am not yet giving up, I will stay stubborn and persistent!


                        I will go ahead and put 500 dollars in your hand!
                        You will have my blessing to go out and spend it on a drum module!
                        Hmm. $500 to spend on a module.... If I could find a used TD-20 for $500 I would go with that. But those dont come around very often. So for $500 I would probably do the TD-12 and upgrade it with the latest software so it is a TD-20 in a TD-12 shell.

                        Question:
                        What would you get yourself, if faced upon the condition, that:

                        a) ...you can only buy new?
                        b) ...you have to go with something used?
                        New? No Budget? Well, I would do what I already did and buy a TD-30KV. Well... Hmm..... Maybe I would look in to a Drum-Tek, Diamond, Jobeky, etc. kit with a TD-30.

                        Used? No Budget? Well, I would buy a used TD-30KV, duh?
                        I think my work is done here.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Sorry, I formatted my text so that it has became quite unclear, I just noticed.
                          One more try:

                          a) Drum module, 500$ budget, must be new.
                          b) Same as above, but used.

                          What would you get?


                          "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                          http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Used, my answer would still be TD-12/20.

                            New??? Hmm... There is the TD-11. Ooh, I see a NIB TD-9 for $475 on Ebay. I think its a v1.0 though. I don't know Yamaha that well, but I know you can get the DTX-502 for less than $500 new. I don't think I would get the DM-10 or the Red Box.
                            I think my work is done here.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I gotta say, I like your choices! I should give you 500$ more often.... Hehehe....


                              Okay, I too was scouring (US-) ebay the last couple minutes:
                              Below 500$: TD-9, Yamaha DTXtreme II, DTX-500

                              I have found a TD-12 as low as 750$, and a DTX-700, altough that one *was* new.


                              Now, I'm wound to a high pitch, whether you will agree or disagree with the following 'thesis':
                              (And I will not compare used pieces to complete kits this time, promised, but new module to used module instead!)

                              - Sweetwater has a new TD-11 module for 579$
                              - For the same amount (and even less) you'll get a used TD-9, or DTX-500, or DTXtreme.

                              Which one would you say has the better 'bang for buck'?


                              And the other one...
                              - TD-15 module at Sweetwater for 1099$
                              - Used TD-12, maybe even TD-20 - (I'll exclude the DTX-700, because it wasn't a 'used' offer)

                              Again, same question:
                              Which offer is making you 'keeping it a little longer' more?



                              "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                              http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                              Comment

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