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Machine Gunning: Fact or Fiction?

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  • #31
    This is particularly why I like the 2Box: Deep layered, multi-velocity, VST quality samples directly from the reliability of a module....and the price point of course.

    IMHO no one will ever be totally satisfied with all module offerings....but this one ticks all the right boxes for me ATM. YMMV of course.
    8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
    http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

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    • #32
      Originally posted by fulrmr(Daniel) View Post
      This is particularly why I like the 2Box: Deep layered, multi-velocity, VST quality samples directly from the reliability of a module....and the price point of course.

      IMHO no one will ever be totally satisfied with all module offerings....but this one ticks all the right boxes for me ATM. YMMV of course.

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      Greetings from Switzerland,
      - Dänoh


      "My best friends' name is . They used to call him '' He has an ''..!"

      http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

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      • #33
        Originally posted by MisterMR View Post
        Surely then... the same would apply to an acoustic drum... no?
        If a machine was playing that acoustic drum, then yes, I would think it would be possible to get machine gunning from an acoustic drum. But humans are not machines and no matter how hard one tries, it is not possible for a human to play with exactly the same force in exactly the same spot on the drum head repeatedly. Close, maybe, but not exact. It's what makes us human! The module, on the other hand can and does emulate this "exactness" all too well and that's when it doesn't sound natural to our ears because we are used to hearing (subconsciously at least) the very subtle differences in each note.
        Also, the module has a finite number of velocity levels and tonal variance for each sound whereas a human's palette is infinite!


        Mark


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        • #34
          This problem has been solved with the latest TD30 module. Go get one, youll be glad you did.
          My Kit:
          TD-30 Module, PD-105 Snare Modded to PD-125, 2x PD-85 Toms, 2x PD-105 Toms, VH-13 Hi-Hat, 3x CY-12 C/R, PD-120 Kick

          YouTube:
          http://www.youtube.com/user/drumgod0...ew=0&flow=grid

          IT Expert by day - Musician by Night!

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          • #35
            MisterMR and hairmetal-81,

            Thanks for your kinds words regarding my "machine gunning" definition. Much appreciated.

            MisterMR:
            So basically, unless you've got loads of memory, meticulously recorded multiple samples assigned to all 127 audible velocity steps available, random selection of said samples around a given velocity zone, tonal variance-assisted filtering at lower velocities and huge polyphony available on all voices... you're never going to replicate acoustic percussion instruments electronically. In that case, all modules are s#!t and VST's still have a long way to go.
            I agree acoustic drum modeling in sound modules and software has a long way to go. Note, I mean "modeling" in a general, colloquial sense, not DSP modeling. Sampling and DSP modeling are two approaches, but there are other approaches too. One thing I'm surprised about is how long the MIDI spec has survived effectively unchanged. For example, 127 velocity layers isn't remotely enough to represent the full spectrum of human hearing sensitivity. Thus, in addition to the "modeling" approaches, the underlying technologies need updating and advancement.

            We're getting there slowly though. Three decades ago I'd have said there would never be a digital piano that sounded close to an actual acoustic piano. I've now been fooled several times, albeit this was during live concert situations where it was difficult to hear the details of the piano. Roland's V-Piano and Modartt's Pianoteq software are easy to spot when compared side-by-side to an actual, acoustic, grand piano. However, both piano models are very musical and expressive, and I'd happily chose these over an acoustic piano in certain situations and not feel I was losing substantial expressiveness. E-drums are getting there too. They are behind digital pianos, but will catch up in due course as the technology becomes more advanced and cheaper.

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            • #36
              drumgod,

              This problem has been solved with the latest TD30 module. Go get one, you'll be glad you did.
              Unfortunately, regarding the TD-30, Roland markets the problem as having been solved, but the actual unit still exhibits plenty of machine gunning. How much you experience depends on the instrument voices you're using, the setup of your module and pads, and the playing techniques and playing speed used.

              That said, as a piece of equipment, the TD-30 is a joy to use. It's very refined and there are lots of features that come in handy while practicing. The idea is to offer a drum-like experience where the user doesn't need to think about e-drums. In as much as is feasible with current technology, with the TD-30, I think Roland has achieved this goal more than any other manufacturer. Subtle things, like the fact all editing is saved automatically, mean you can focus on playing drums rather than "module programming". And, even more subtle things, like the fact the auto-off feature physically toggles the on/off switch to its correct position, allows users to focus on playing rather than thinking about the technology.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by drumgod View Post
                This problem has been solved with the latest TD30 module. Go get one, youll be glad you did.
                Is that because you own it? The toms on the TD30 still have machine gunning. Great module and great company but lets keep things in perspective.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by csnow View Post
                  Is that because you own it? The toms on the TD30 still have machine gunning. Great module and great company but lets keep things in perspective.
                  Correct, the toms leave some to be desired. They sound OK (The Bank A ones), but man, when I play toms on Superior Drummer or even the toms on the 2 Box sound really nice and puts a big smile on my face! The cymbals sound great, snares sound very good and kick sounds good too as well. If they can do to the toms what they did with the snares they will be all good! They technically should have with how much the damn module costs!



                  www.youtube.com/gregthegroove

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                    One thing I'm surprised about is how long the MIDI spec has survived effectively unchanged. For example, 127 velocity layers isn't remotely enough to represent the full spectrum of human hearing sensitivity. Thus, in addition to the "modeling" approaches, the underlying technologies need updating and advancement
                    Yeah, MIDI is in its 30th year by now, and will be around as long as 'downward compatibility' is demanded. Newer gear has USB anyway....

                    There are ways of getting around the restriction of velocity layers (no matter how high the number): This can be achieved by 'interpolation' between two layers.

                    Yamaha is the one that came up with it; in... you guessed it! ...their digital pianos! - In effect eliminating the audible steps between the different velocity-layers when going from 'Pianissimo' to a crushing 'Forte Fortissimo'.

                    That said, the realism you get if you've got a round-robin function and a sample for every of 127 velocity steps, is unmatched!
                    .
                    .
                    Greetings from Switzerland,
                    - Dänoh


                    "My best friends' name is . They used to call him '' He has an ''..!"

                    http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

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