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**Boingo** · 01-18-02, 06:33 PM

I think you can very easily overdo this sort of thing and that it's fresh, positive effect diminishes rapidly as you increase the frequency.

Maybe this is unique to being in a praise band but your average person has a not so great sense of time. Clapping and singing easily gets out of sync. As the drummer, I try to really lay into the snare to keep people on track during those times, but often, no matter what I do, they just can't keep it happening. The problem for them is they know they are out of sync and I think it distracts them from experiencing the music favorably.

Experiment. That's good. You don't need every song the same. But it's not a way of life. Single tempo's are the norm. They should be spiced up with interesting chords and patterns, phrasings, vocal styles, etc. Just changing tempo's to make it interesting can be a mistake. Just my 2 peso's.

**darrenmc** · 01-18-02, 07:25 PM

Originally posted by drumlogic:
I was just curious as to how many of you musicians out there are using tempo changes within a song to add a sort of dynamic to your music. Alot of my bands music changes tempo between verse/chorus/bridge. Some people have told me that this is a mistake and that we should keep all of our songs at one tempo. I dont know if this is unusual by I kinda get the feeling that mono tempo songs are really for people who like to stick directly to the basic's of music. I on the other hand try to be a little experimental and innovative. How many of you other musicians do this??

There is an American progressive rock-metal band called Dream Theater that changes tempo A LOT. Too much, in my opinion, although I keep listening because they are monster musicians. But many of their tempo changes are pointless, and they SOUND pointless.... annoying displays of musicianship. To each their own but that's not what most people want to hear. I think the important thing is to write songs that FLOW and WORK. A tempo change should sound seamless and logical, not just stuffed in there because it can be. That's hard to do. Just my 2 cents.

Darren

**Marc.** · 01-18-02, 08:32 PM

Tempo changes? Black Sabbath is the 1st band that comes to mind. -

Basics of music? Are there? It's really the composer's call isn't it?

Unless you're referring to sloppy musicians that cannot seem to keep time.

**Toekneedrum** · 01-18-02, 09:30 PM

Although many people can't keep perfect time I think that they can tell when a song is speeding up and slowing down and not grooving. Watch the crowd
at a live performance where the band is not keeping steady time. People will clap along for a bit and then just sort of give up. When you have a band that is locked in and grooving folks will clap and and "feel it" (the groove). I had a Worship leader that liked to speed up the chorus of cetain songs and called it "dynamics"...WRONG! Dynamics is LOUD and soft...

**matts64** · 01-19-02, 07:02 AM

You are right. Somtimes there are tempo fluctuations when crossing from one part to another (ie: verse to chorus, etc.). I think there are minute fluctuations that naturally occurr in some songs. Sometimes that can be a good thing. Especially if everybody knows the chorus and can join in in singing.

I think that sometimes it can be a bad thing for a song too. Can you imagine a song like (ok, OK Don't knock the age!) Gladys Knight and the Pips' "Midnight Train to Georgia" speeding up? Boy, what a way train wreck! That would ruin the perfect groove!

Ironically, it is the drummer who is responsible/blamed for timekeeping when it is the leader/singer that drives the changes in tempo....in my case anyway! Keep in mind that this is the guy that starts every song in 3/4 regardless of what the time signature really is! Once when I made a comment about the tempo picking up, he retorted by saying that it is the drummer's responsibility to keep it steady. I replied "I practice with a metronome. If you want me to hold it steady then you listen to what I'm doing!" He's never made another comment about time to me...not that he has begun to follow my lead on tempo though!

**Boingo** · 01-19-02, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by matts64:
Ironically, it is the drummer who is responsible/blamed for timekeeping when it is the leader/singer that drives the changes in tempo....in my case anyway! ...If you want me to hold it steady then you listen to what I'm doing!"

Been there, done that. Ain't it the truth. I have had to play with several singers that jump in too soon or late. I also get hand signals for a song to speed up or slow down but when I try, I'm ignored for the most part and feel foolish since there's the appearance I screwed up. In a Church setting you have a few hundred people singing plus the choir. Man! no matter what you do, it's next to impossible to get that many people to change tempo. If you don't control it and get it right from the start, you are usually doomed. I'm at the point where I just laugh it off. I used to get upset about it.

**drumlogic** · 01-19-02, 09:20 AM

Darren it is funny that you mention dream theater since Mike Portnoy is one of biggest influeces. I guess that probably played a role when I wrote the drum parts/songs with my band.
Dream Theater ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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-Drumlogic, V-session, Visulite cymbals, (2)Mackie srm-450, bbe 482 sonic maximizer, spd-20

**matts64** · 01-19-02, 04:51 PM

Boingo:

I'm glad somebody feels my pain. Actually, as much as I complain, I appreciate having this gig. There is nothing like playing in a hard situation to make you a better player!

Playing in a P&W band is very difficult because of the range of talent, music and "showmanship" (or presentation of material). When the band comes off poorly (sometimes my perception is extremely critical), I go home and wood shed on the area needing improvement. Instead of working on chops, I'll work on improving tempo or trying to improve the feel by varying the feel of the beat. It makes me specifically work on areas that I would not normally work on.

**drumwire** · 01-20-02, 01:13 PM

I think a little bit of something different goes a long way, but a lot of something different may totally diminish what you are about and trying to accomplish.

In our band, we don't really have any planned tempo changes, but we do experiment ever so gently with time signature changes or a little odd meter here or there. We may have a measure or two in the song with 5/4 or maybe two extra beats, etc. and sometimes even an entire section of the song may be 5/4 for a short time, but I've found is that the key is that whatever you do has to fit. If you've got the ear for it great. If you are curious, then try it both ways (standard and then whatever you are toying with) and get some feedback from your die-hard fans or friends. Those people can give you objectivity . . . if you truly want an objective opinion : )

Otherwise, just do what you enjoy and don't worry about it. That is what I think.

**Schmunk** · 01-20-02, 01:57 PM

Originally posted by drumlogic:

Dream Theater ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is a really weird thing that you Americans do but we Brits never would, describing a band of several people as a singular. We would say "Dream Theater (or Theatre if we're going to be British) ROCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", or perhaps "Dream Theater ROCK PROGRESSIVELY!!!!!!!". Arf.

Schmunk

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TD-8, Pintech pads, Pearl rack, PM-3, Behringer 802 mixer and DSP1400 UltraMizer, Electric Sticks.

**Alexander** · 01-20-02, 01:59 PM

Dream Theatre is notorious for changing Time Signatures, not simply Tempo in a single (4/4, for ex.) time signature. I think some of it sounds really interesting.

Speeding Up & Slowing Down whilst in the same time signature usually sounds horrible & is typical of much punk rock (i.e. non-technical/trained, drummers/musicians). But hey, to each his own, LoL!

**drumlogic** · 01-20-02, 11:02 PM

I use the word dream theater to describe a combined result of 5 amazing musicians. Its not about the 5 individuals but what they create as a single entity. kinda like Rush.

Rush rocks!!!!!!!!!

(Rush Rock would sound very weird)

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-Drumlogic, V-session, Visulite cymbals, (2)Mackie srm-450, bbe 482 sonic maximizer, spd-20

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