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A Thought on Bootiful Melodies & Harmonies....

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  • A Thought on Bootiful Melodies & Harmonies....

    Man-o-man.. Before I voyage unto the magnificent realm of SleepyPoo !, I wanted to share a thought on Muzak.

    Namely, a few tunes I've heard for the first time, this night on SF's radio waves. These are kinda abstract songs for me & not usual, & Certainly not musician's music. Anyway, if you get a chance, download 'Blurry' by Puddle of Mudd (bootiful verses here) & 'Innocence', by Chihiro Onitsuka (bootiful chorus here), & 'Chop Suey' & 'Science' by System Of A Down (2 heavy/punky tunes with great melodic bridges & meaningful lyrics). All of these tunes simply have bootiful melodies somewhere & meaningful lyrics.

    In my olde age (31-Lol), I'm realizing there's no particular Genre of Music I favor or dilike. & although I can play most types of music & at least fake anything I hear as a drummer, I find I'm really into melody & harmony! What's wrong with me?! I used to memorize Primus & Rush albums on my Acoustics in the early & mid 90's just fo' da phuckuvit?!

    Anywhoo, for those of you that hear those bits, lemme know if you Dig. Nite nite.


    ------------------
    Thanx!
    -Alex & V's: http://photos.yahoo.com/flexapr
    Thanx. Alex & me V's! http://photos.yahoo.com/flexapr

  • #2
    Just opinion, but I like Puddle of Mudd, haven't heard Chihiro Onitsuka (love Ichiro, tho!!!!), and think that System of a Down should never have gotten signed.

    I like lots of different stuff (I gig in both Electronic/Alternative and acoustic 60's Brit Pop bands), and like most everything except:

    - Country Music - Don't like to listen to it much, but don't mind playing it.

    - Rap - Isn't even music, per se. I think of it as an entertainment form, like professional wrestling.

    Disclaimer: The above comment on Rap specifically excludes Rage Against The Machine, who rocked in the extreme.

    My opinion,

    -Danny

    P.S.- I'm even older, at 35!

    [This message has been edited by fartnokker (edited November 14, 2001).]
    -Danny

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

    Comment


    • #3
      Forgot to address your main point: Digging the melodic thing is not a sign of senility or illness. Notice how many bands start off "heavy" - i.e. not melodic or very musical, but just enthusiastic.

      As they progress and become better musicians, their songwriting matures to the point that they begin "playing for the song" and incorporating melodic hooks in their music.

      This is when the musically uneducated young masses like to say that the band has "sold out" and "gone commercial" or "gotten mellow in their old age." In fact, this change is usually a direct reflection of their becoming better songwriters and musicians.

      There are bands that have commercial appeal to young audiences that have great melodic and pop instincts, such as Weezer, Green Day, 311, Lit, and Fuel, just to name a few that I particularly like.

      It doesn't have to be rocket science to be good music, which takes some people much longer than others to figure out. All of these band are very melodic and most use good vocal harmonies. None of the music is technically difficult to play, but it sounds good and has a broad appeal, which is usually the point of the game...

      I like Slipknot as much as the next guy, and appreciate it for what it is, but it isn't good songwriting. It is attitude music, which doesn't require songwriting skill so much as sheer physical stamina.

      Sounds like your appreciation for melody and harmony is just a matter of refining your musical taste...

      -Danny

      [This message has been edited by fartnokker (edited November 14, 2001).]
      -Danny

      Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by fartnokker:
        - Rap - Isn't even music, per se. I think of it as an entertainment form, like professional wrestling.
        danny -

        i had first drafted a rather sharp rebuke to what i perceived as a reasonably ignorant remark (and certainly a stale criticism) about a particular musical genre.

        but THEN i realized that you had probably carefully chosen the term "Rap," as opposed to "hip-hop," as your way of differentiating between the bullsh1t music puff-daddy/diddy/doody and his ilk subject us to on the radio and those (such as say the roots, a tribe called quest, de la soul) who truly put their heart and soul into the artform of creating hip-hop music and have been at the forefront of important musical movements for the past 5 years/2 decades, depending on how you look at things.

        i realize that it was unfair of my to doubt someone whose contributions to this board i always appreciate and enjoy and for that i apologize. certainly someone whose opinion i respect as frequently as yours would be able to acknowledge not only the musical validity of hip-hop music and it's citizenry (djs, mcs, producers and, yes, even live musicians) but also hip-hop's obvious influence and contributions to other established musical forms such as rock, jazz and even classical/orchestral music.

        don't you think?



        ps: i couldn't agree more on the country front. i would much enjoy being able to enjoy country music through the eyes of someone who really knows and love it, because i feel that i have never given it a fair chance. i know some of lyle lovett's stuff is banging and i feel there must be more to it then meets the eye.


        [This message has been edited by digitsone (edited November 14, 2001).]

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by fartnokker:
          Just opinion, but I like Puddle of Mudd, haven't heard Chihiro Onitsuka (love Ichiro, tho!!!!), and think that System of a Down should never have gotten signed.

          I like lots of different stuff (I gig in both Electronic/Alternative and acoustic 60's Brit Pop bands), and like most everything except:

          - Country Music - Don't like to listen to it much, but don't mind playing it.

          - Rap - Isn't even music, per se. I think of it as an entertainment form, like professional wrestling.
          1) System Of A Down are excellent, I don't know how you can disagree.. It's personal choice I suppose. Nonetheless, objectively, they do deserve their record contract (try 'Sugar' from their first album).

          2) Country music is just bad. No exceptions. (Unless you can tell me otherwise).

          3) Rap is not a music form, it's really a form of poetry, although often set to music - usually in the form of hip-hop. That is not to say it's not an art form, because it clearly is. Can you rap? Thought not. Neither can I. It takes talent, and done well it is very impressive and very moving.


          Schmunk
          TD-8, Pintech pads, Pearl rack, Mackie SRM-450, Behringer 802 mixer and DSP1400 UltraMizer, Electric Sticks.

          Comment


          • #6
            Shakespeare rapped!

            SONNET 9
            Is it for fear to wet a widow's eye
            That thou consumest thyself in single life?
            Ah! if thou issueless shalt hap to die.
            The world will wail thee, like a makeless wife;
            The world will be thy widow and still weep
            That thou no form of thee hast left behind,
            When every private widow well may keep
            By children's eyes her husband's shape in mind.
            Look, what an unthrift in the world doth spend
            Shifts but his place, for still the world enjoys it;
            But beauty's waste hath in the world an end,
            And kept unused, the user so destroys it.
            No love toward others in that bosom sits
            That on himself such murderous shame commits.

            Comment


            • #7
              Hey schmunk, to appreciate country music you'll have to open up a compartment of your brain called the "sense of humor (or humour if you insist)". You're just being close minded. I'm not a big CM fan, but they do some entertaining stuff. I never liked Shania Twain, but I got her concert DVD and have to admit she writes some pretty good songs for her genre and puts on a good show. If you watch that and have to honestly say that its bad, then I think you are hopelessly narrow minded. Can you really say that Johnny Cash's Folsom Prison Blues is a bad song? That would be like saying all English food is bad and then tasting a plum pudding and saying its bad just out of spite. Please don't tell me I'm supposed to take Slipknot or Disturbed totally seriously either. I get a kick out of them, but there is something kind of funny about them too. I love their look!

              Comment


              • #8
                Per Schmunk:

                "2) Country music is just bad. No exceptions. (Unless you can tell me otherwise)."

                Johnny Cash.

                You know, he shot a man in Reno...just to watch him die.

                Comment


                • #9
                  digitsone, I'm glad you made the distinction, because it was there. Bands (yes, bands!) you mention like Roots, Tribe, etc. that actually PLAY hip-hop have my musical respect. To me, they build upon the groove foundations laid by such giants as Mr. C's P-Funk and the immortal T.O.P. I would not disparage hip-hop in a blanket fashion that way.

                  Big diff between them and the talentless twits who sample (often without permission) the artistic work of others, then add an Alesis SR-16 drum machine beat and talk over it. To rap, per se, is to talk. Usually, but not always, rhythmically and with a rhyming pattern. Some do better than others at this. Can I and have I rapped? Yes. BFD. I could practice it a very little bit, and become fairly proficient at it, having the necessary talent already (ability to speak.) Ice-T, whom I respect as an artist and who knows much more about rap than I ever will, once said in an interview that he started rapping because he liked music but couldn't sing or play an instrument. He himself said that it took no talent to start. His art is in WHAT he says, not so much how. See my angle?

                  Yes, I agree that it takes talent to do well. So does fixing a toilet, but that doesn't qualify as music, either! To me, a necessary component of music is some level of musicianship involved in the creation of said music. Whether it be a kid who only knows 3 chords on a guitar, or a tabla master creating complex rhythmic arrangements, there is some level of musicianship involved.

                  I don't consider a turntable as a musical instrument, per se. To me, it is a technical tool, like samplers, sequencers, etc. My band uses both of those, so I'm not being overly hypocritical here, I hope. As for producers... some musicians are also producers, but producers are not, by definition, musicians. MC's are... Well, that's a bastardization of "emcee (traditional use)" or Master of Ceremonies. If Jerry Lewis raises lots of money as the emcee of his telethon, is he a good MC? Just kidding; I've just always hated that term used in that way (i.e.- Sucker MC's) so pay no attention. I also hate the term "Hog" being used for non-Harley-Davidson motorcycles, but I'm just weird like that...

                  Back to the subject at hand, country music is something I can speak with a little more authority on. Having been raised in the reddest of the rednecked south, I was force-fed a constant diet of country music growing up. While I can enjoy playing and recording country music, there is very little I can listen to pleasurably. Willie Nelson's Stardust album is one (kinda partial to Willie among country artists), Faith Hill and Shania Twain could round out one of my fantasy threesomes, and Garth Brooks is a pop icon.

                  I respect some country artists musically, but the rigid formulae used in the majority of country music is not to my liking. Twangy accent on the vocals (even if the singer doesn't speak with one), slide guitar that sounds like a whining cat, and the use of about a dozen first-call Nashville studio musicians to record about 90% of all country records (no matter who is on the cover) all kinda turn me off.

                  Country music comes off, to me, kinda like bowling. Kinda fun to do, but unless you drive a muddy pickup truck, own a large belt-buckle, drink cheap beer and dance without moving your hips (living in trailer is optional), it just ain't fun to be a spectator. It is the total antethesis of hip-hop; yin and yang.

                  Now that I've p!$$ed a bunch of folks off, I'm sure, I have to add that I respect the right of anyone to make and/or enjoy any type of music. Sometimes, my biggest gripe is "is it really music?" By my rules, I'm allowed to make this call, since art is truly in the eye (or ear) of the beholder. I also defend the right of anyone else to make that decision for themselves, too.

                  Some real left-field avant garde jazz isn't musical at all to me, but WTF? At least they are PLAYING it, and not discussing "b!tches and ho's" over the top of someone else's music, sampled in a loop.

                  Hope this clears up my thoughts, whether anyone agrees with me or not. Narrow-minded? Maybe, but I don't think so. Fond of provocative statements? Definitely. Tongue-in-cheek? You betcha!

                  And digitsone, if you respect my opinions, as you said in your post, then you must not know me very well!!!!! Even my wife doesn't respect my opinions...

                  -Danny


                  -Danny

                  Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Also, for Schmunk: I was just joking that SOAD shouldn't have gotten their contract; I'm jealous of 'em. I really don't like their music (Sugar really grates on me!) but their getting paid much more than I am to do it... Only got $75 for my last gig on Wednesday. :P

                    Later,

                    -Danny
                    -Danny

                    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      hey danny -

                      thanks for the responses. this is a much more civil debate then i usually have on this topic.

                      i am clearly a big fan or hip-hop and staunch defender of sampling and turntables as legitimate tools for creating music. mind you, they are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT tools.

                      first argument - sampling is/can be a musical artform. my typical approach to this argument is to liken sampling in hip-hop music to collage in popular art. collage is, of course, the appropriation and assemblage of units of visual media in the creation of a new visual artwork. simply by putting visual objects in a new environment and changing their meaning, art can be created. see Guitar by picasso as an example.

                      in my opinion, the same analogy holds for sonic media. by reappropriating different sonic pieces and putting them into a new framework, and new musical form and structure can be created. this is, for me, why hip-hop music that is largely based on sampled music still qualifies as MUSIC to me.

                      second argument - the turntable is an instrument. actually, my argument is that when used in conjuction with a scratch mixer and a record with scratchable samples a super-instrument is created. this instrument can be used to create/replicate almost any sound. by moving the sample of a kick, snare and hihat under the needle, i can scratch an entire drum beat. see example one. i can play any length notes of various pitches and at various tempos with instrument. see example two and example three. finally, these sounds can all be assembled into a song. here is one of my favorites, uploaded in mp3 exclusively for my homeboys and homegirls at v-drums.

                      all that said, everyone is entitled to his/her own opinion. i happen to be a scratch dj as well as a drummer, and have a long-time love affair with hip-hop music, so that's the mindset i approach this from. i also love to share my knowledge and love of the music form with others ... so hopefully you will enjoy this post!

                      peace -

                      jon aka dj digits

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Enjoy it I did! Matter of fact, believe it or not, you actually put DJ/Scratch work in a new perspective for me.

                        Don't take this the wrong way, but I'm not much of a fan of abstractionists, and your reference to the Picasso collage is a great example of what I see as a visual representation of ADD more than meticulously constructed artwork. On the other hand, Picasso is heralded by millions worldwide as the quintessential abstractionist, and a brilliant artist.

                        Once again, the art is in the perspective of the viewer/listener. Although I don't like sample/scratch "musical collages" (to borrow your terms) any better than before, I have a different way of viewing/catagorizing them. More like Picasso vs. Monet rather than $hit vs. caviar, so to speak.

                        As a guy in a band who uses an E-Mu sampler and an old-tech Alesis sequencer for recording and live performance, I'm not against the concept of sampling; on the contrary, I use it every time I perform. Some of my biggest gripes have to do with WHO is sampled, and whether or not specific rights have been granted by the original artist. Most of what we/I sample in my main band is material that we've constructed thru synth tracking, V-drum patterns looped thru the sequencer, and other vocals/instruments run through various effects processors. No copyright infringements to worry about, and we've actually created our sounds from scratch, no pun intended.

                        The turntable as an instrument... well, I'm not convinced, since I picked mine up years ago at a stereo store, not a music store. It plays records. Not that I don't think that turntables have other musical applications -- I guess I'm more of an old-fashioned purist in the sense that musical instruments are strings, wind, percussion, with many sub-catagories in each. I don't consider a rain stick a musical instrument any more than I'd consider my old jock strap one, although some people do. They may have musical applications, but I'll never think of a rain stick the same way I think of a Les Paul Custom or an Artley flute, or whatever. Subjective vs. objective maybe, but what the he11...

                        Now, with all that out of the way, I've got a song recording that we've considered using some scratch work in, and we have decided not to use "canned" scratches. Maybe we should hook up...

                        -Danny
                        -Danny

                        Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          hey danny -

                          i'm glad, categorically at least, scratch djing has been elevated to at least somewhere above sh1t! gotta start somewhere, i suppose, and from there it's pretty much only up!

                          as for scratch work, i am always interested in laying down some cuts, especially when the canned version is the alternative. there remains one rather large issue though - the geographical width of our coutry is quite large. once i get my home studio happening i am definitely going to be working with rocketnetwork, though. i am waiting for my new audio interface to come (hopefully within a month) and then i should be up to speed.

                          if you are looking for a more timely solution to your scratching needs, there are many talented turntable wizards in your neck of the woods. i think a kid i know named rocky rock may have just moved to your neck of the woods. rocky's an amazing dj.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Rap is mostly crap & sampled stuff, but Hip-Hop is great - Rage Against the Machine rules! We do covers for Linkin Park and POD (which I have personally met) and are excellent!

                            Want Soulful melody? Buy the CD "Now" by Maxwell (tracks 5, 3, 4) best crowd reponse yet!

                            39 yrs old and I'm never growing up! - sorry
                            TD-10/TDW-1vc, 3-PD120, 2-PD100, 2-PD80, 2-KD7, 3-14C, 2-15R, SPD-20, 2-ECymbal II splash, 1-ECymbal II china, 2-IronCobra kicks, 1 angry ex-wife.

                            :eek: " I see drum people"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Good for you, V-Junkie! One can grow older, but it is good to never completely grow up!

                              I agree to hell and back about Rage Against the Machine, but alas, Zack left the band and Rage is no more. The rest of the band has supposedly been laying down some tracks with none other than Chris Cornell on vocals. Can't wait to hear the result! Imagine Soundgarden meets Rage!

                              Just for the record, tho, I don't really consider Rage as hip-hop; more like Rap-Metal. Just splittin' hairs...

                              -Danny
                              -Danny

                              Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

                              Comment

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