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Infinite Justice?

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  • Infinite Justice?

    With a growing feeling of fear I am seeing warships and airplanes move towards Afghanistan. Preparing for a new wave of violence that will create new orphans, who will grow up in an environment of increased terror, famine, oppression and hate. Eradicating the current generation of martyrs is destined to create a new wave of holy warriors.

    How effective can a military effort be in fighting hate?

    What if the world, that now is uniting to fight terrorism and willing to spend billions on a military response, would do the exact opposite. What if, instead of sending bombs and hate, we send food, medical help, shelter, education and support. Would this not be far more effective? Would this not be infinitely more powerful?

    We have the opportunity to show the world that the view that the extremists are preaching about the Western world is wrong. We have the opportunity to truly make a change. We have the opportunity to help the people who currently have no future.

    We have the opportunity to change OUR future.

    Love,

    Rop

  • #2
    Originally posted by Pleiadian:
    [B]
    What if, instead of sending bombs and hate, we send food, medical help, shelter, education and support. Would this not be far more effective? Would this not be infinitely more powerful?
    [B]
    The United States does more of this than any country in the world now. These people are not interested in aid. They are interested in killing Americans, Israelis, British, French, Germans, and I'll bet they'd just love to spill alot of Dutch blood as well. Any other ideas?

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Pleiadian:
      What if the world, that now is uniting to fight terrorism and willing to spend billions on a military response, would do the exact opposite. What if, instead of sending bombs and hate, we send food, medical help, shelter, education and support. Would this not be far more effective? Would this not be infinitely more powerful?

      We have the opportunity to show the world that the view that the extremists are preaching about the Western world is wrong. We have the opportunity to truly make a change. We have the opportunity to help the people who currently have no future.

      We have the opportunity to change OUR future.

      Love,

      Rop
      Ooops.

      Rob, the issue is that ANY intrusion of the "infidel" western world is the issue - this includes humanitarian efforts. So, we are damned no matter what we do. According to your scenario, we have three options:

      1) Bomb like hell - this will create more martyrs and backfire immediately.

      2) Bomb them with aid, funds, education - this will create more animosity about pushing our 'godless' culture on their people (Afghanistan specifically here), and backfire immediately.

      3) Do nothing - and we are viewed as pushovers, and that backfires immediately.

      A bonus option:

      4) Insert your scenario here.

      We are in quite a pickle. If people are willing to trade their young lives in a suicide attack for a one-way ticket to heaven and 100 virgins, what can we do? Seriously?

      I say we take a few B-52's and carpet bomb them with virgins.

      - Hans
      - Hans

      Comment


      • #4
        You forget that the Afghans (the only people who will suffer in a military response) are under an oppressive Taleban regime. The general populace hate the Talebans (who were trained, armed and funded by the US) as much as anyone.

        Quote:
        >The United States does more of this than >any country in the world now.

        Correct, but not in terms of doing good. Do the words Nicaragua and Angola, among many many others, mean anything?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by hmasing:
          Do nothing - and we are viewed as pushovers, and that backfires immediately
          I would re-word that as "do nothing, and prevent a tragic repeat of 9/11". When the stakes are this high, the bottom line is consequence. No humanitarian effort can justify the atrocities of 9/11.

          Secondly, how exactly would a policy of non-intervention "backfire"?

          Finally, the only "pushovers" are the ones who blindly accept that government "knows best" what to do with your hard-earned money (and that coercive force is the only answer to social problems).

          None of this is directed at you personlly, Hans. I just want to get people thinking about the role of government in their lives -- what is necessary to sustain a healthy working society, and what is harmful to it. (There is no such thing as an "unnecessary but unharmful" use of government force BTW.)
          Roland TD-20 v1.08, various v-drums and v-cymbals, Yamaha KP65's, Axis pedals, Gibraltar hardware, Mackie 1202/SRM450 (pre-china)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Arriguy:
            The United States does more of this than any country in the world now. These people are not interested in aid. They are interested in killing Americans, Israelis, British, French, Germans, and I'll bet they'd just love to spill alot of Dutch blood as well. Any other ideas?
            Yes...

            - Make allies out of our enemies.
            - Stop the cycle of violence.
            - Have the courage to think of something else than militairy action.
            - Look at fixing the cause, not the symptoms.

            I do not consider myself a Christian, but J.C. has taught some very important lessons about dealing with violence. It is a shame to see some of the so-called spiritual leaders justifying the impending military action.

            But do YOU have any other ideas, besides war?

            [This message has been edited by Pleiadian (edited September 20, 2001).]

            Comment


            • #7
              If we as a country sit idle and "do nothing" we are sending a clear signal to Bin-Ladan and his followers that hey "if you attack us, we will talk a good game but in the end we'll do nothing, so hey come back and bomb some more buildings." That's bull**** in my opion. We need to send a clear signal that terrorism will NOT BE TOLERATED. If we have to use milliatry force and so be it. We already have 100 WARPLANES flying out to the middle east, I hope those son's of *****es are ready cause their about to get rocked!!

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by AkristaK:
                If we as a country sit idle and "do nothing" we are sending a clear signal to Bin-Ladan and his followers that hey "if you attack us, we will talk a good game but in the end we'll do nothing, so hey come back and bomb some more buildings."
                I am certainly NOT saying that we (meaning the Western world, since I am Dutch )should do nothing.

                Don't you see that we are reacting exactly as intended by the perpetrators? Their goal is to provoke a global conflict... and we're giving it to them. Don't you see that we're being manipulated?!

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by AkristaK:
                  If we as a country sit idle and "do nothing" we are sending a clear signal to Bin-Ladan and his followers that hey "if you attack us, we will talk a good game but in the end we'll do nothing, so hey come back and bomb some more buildings."
                  This is just a misunderstanding. "Do nothing" refers to foreign policy (aid/intervention), not retaliation for 9/11 (counter-attack). The assertion is that 9/11 would never have happened had the US ***government*** not chosen a foreign policy of intervention. You, as a civilian, can send money to anybody in any country you want; the difference is that you are not authorized to invoke coercive force. The government is not subject to this restriction -- in fact coercive force is what defines government.

                  Personally, I fully support the use of military force against the perpetrators of 9/11 (if we can *prove* who actually did it), but I certainly do not support the use of force against peaceful, innocent Muslims (which makes up the vast majority of the Middle Eastern population BTW), regardless of whether or not they "support" America. To draw a poor analogy, the members of the KKK can preach racism till the cows come home, but not one of them has committed a crime until they actually invoke force on another human being. The "liberals" (socialist-leaning democrats) would have it otherwise, but they ignore the fact that tolerance is a prerequisite of liberty. But now I'm off the subject...
                  Roland TD-20 v1.08, various v-drums and v-cymbals, Yamaha KP65's, Axis pedals, Gibraltar hardware, Mackie 1202/SRM450 (pre-china)

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    This is a discussion forum about e-drums. In the Twin Towers topic I made an exception because so many innocent people were killed and I wanted to share my sympathy, but now it comes to a retaliation we should leave this to politicians.

                    So, are you using a PD-100 or PD-120 snare?
                    Robert

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by puttenvr:
                      This is a discussion forum about e-drums...
                      Quite right, puttenvr. I don't comb political debate sites looking for e-drum discussions, but it seems I'm constantly trying to avoid the equivalent reverse here.
                      ...So, are you using a PD-100 or PD-120 snare?
                      Or a ddrum?!



                      [This message has been edited by dr. kildrum (edited September 20, 2001).]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by puttenvr:
                        This is a discussion forum about e-drums. In the Twin Towers topic I made an exception because so many innocent people were killed and I wanted to share my sympathy, but now it comes to a retaliation we should leave this to politicians.

                        So, are you using a PD-100 or PD-120 snare?
                        Normally I would be the first to agree completely. These are not a normal circumstances however. Leaving it up to politicians may not be the best choice. In fact, I think that is part of the problem.

                        I posted my ideas because I am very sad and worried. It prevents me from playing the drums.

                        But if there is no support for discussing it on this forum... this is the last on the subject. In fact, I am willing to completely remove this thread.

                        I use a PD-80R

                        [This message has been edited by Pleiadian (edited September 20, 2001).]

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          hold on....

                          it is amazing how we have enough firepower and technology to fight this
                          "war" from the safety of destroyers or aircraft carriers. but we are afraid to use it.
                          they have been referring this attack to pearl harbor. what did we do
                          as retalliation to that......we used the einstein bomb. i really dont want the
                          world to become involved in wiping out civilizations, but i think that the first
                          chance that these monsters get they will do it to us since they have no regard for life.

                          i say nato needs to eliminate all government control in the entire middle east....overthrow every middle
                          eastern country and declare that nation as a world nation. nato controled government. then start supplying the
                          poverty stricken people there with education, food, and that kinda schite.

                          that way the world oil supply will be in natos hands. the crack heads like sadam hussean, and others will
                          be gone.

                          and the millions of illegal aliens in this country need to be removed. some of these internal cells of organized terrorists in the us are going to really **** us up if we dont eliminate them...we are sending our military to the wrong place. it is not yet time to be offensive -
                          we still need to be defensive in our own country. the police are not gonna do it....need big guns and lots of people trained to **** people up - i.e. the marines.
                          more people here are going to get slaughtered because of our own ignorance.

                          as soon as we start bombong Afghanistan, they will officially delcare a holy war. then all of those wacko extrimists here are
                          gonna start attacking from the inside.

                          it is the perfect plan......

                          i donno. i dont follow politics.... know nothing about it.....dont want to... but god damn....common sense anyone??

                          ok im done rambling.

                          p.s. - neither rob - i use a triggered acoustic snare.

                          erik

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            We are the most tolerant nation in the World when it comes to allowing every race and nationality into our country and look where it's gotten us...

                            It's an important issue to talk about, it really comes down to the survival of the human race...If we don't figure this one out soon, we'll all be sucking on anthrax and it won't matter then whether we like ddrums or vdrums, pd-100's or pd 120's, vclubs or vcustoms, or td-10's or or dmpro's...

                            Bin Laden's main goal is to destroy the majority of the world, with the exception of the little roaches nest he lives in, and start all over again with a "super race", ala our good buddy A. Hitler himself...how do you preach a policy of nonviolence and pacifism against a psycho like this?? or Charles Manson?? or Jack the Ripper??? or Timothy McVeigh??

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              C'mon guys!

                              This thread is titled "Infinite Justice".

                              Did you think it meant a discussion about Roland rebating to us the cost of the TDW-1?

                              Seriously, though, a terrible thing happened to all of us last week, and most likely our lives will be changed because of it for a long time.

                              Let those of us who want to discuss it here, with our V-family, have the opportunity.

                              Unfortunately, it is hard not to think about this tragedy.

                              Why not start a new thread re drumming, or go back and add something springtime fresh to a previous question,like, say.....oh, I don't know.... how about that question about what loops and chains everyone is using?
                              Immensely powerful yet with a liquid cat-quick elegance

                              Comment

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