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    I recieved this e-mail anonymously and have had no luck in locating the source. All I have is it was published in some college newletter. Sounds right, in any case.

    Can any of you web gurus pin this down? I would like to credit the source prior to distributing it elwhere. I ask here because you folks have proven to be the most web savy of any other groups I know of. Good Luck.


    "Subject: Afghanistan
    Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2001 01:38:08 -0700

    I've been hearing a lot of talk about "bombing Afghanistan back to the
    Stone Age." Ron Owens, on KGO Talk Radio today, allowed that this would
    mean killing innocent people, people who had nothing to do with this
    atrocity, but "we're at war, we have to accept collateral damage. What
    else can we do?" Minutes later I heard some TV pundit discussing
    whether we "have the belly to do what must be done." And I thought
    about the issues being raised especially hard because I am from
    Afghanistan, and even though I've lived here for 35 years I've never
    lost track of what's going on there. So I want to tell anyone who will
    listen how it all looks from where I'm standing.

    I speak as one who deeply hates the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden. My
    hatred comes from first hand experience. There is no doubt in my mind
    that these people were responsible for the atrocity in New York. I agree
    that something must be done about those monsters.
    But the Taliban and Ben Laden are not Afghanistan. They're not even the
    government of Afghanistan. The Taliban are a cult of ignorant
    psychotics who took over Afghanistan in 1997. Bin Laden is a political
    criminal with a plan. When you think Taliban, think Nazis. When you
    think Bin Laden,think Hitler. And when you think "the people of
    Afghanistan" think "the Jews in the concentration camps."

    It's not only that the Afghan people had nothing to do with this
    atrocity. They were the first victims of the perpetrators. They would
    exult if someone would come in there, take out the Taliban and clear out
    the rats nest of international thugs holed up in their country.
    Some say, why don't the Afghans rise up and overthrow the Taliban? The
    answer is, they're starved, exhausted, hurt, incapacitated, suffering.
    A few years ago, the United Nations estimated that there are 500,000
    disabled orphans in Afghanistan--a country with no economy, no food.
    There are millions of widows. And the Taliban has been burying these
    widows alive in mass graves. The soil is littered with land mines, the
    farms were all destroyed by the Soviets. These are a few of the
    reasons why the Afghan people have not overthrown the Taliban.

    We come now to the question of "bombing Afghanistan back to the Stone
    Age". Trouble is, that's been done. The Soviets took care of it
    already. Make the Afghans suffer? They're already suffering. Level
    their houses? Done.
    Turn their schools into piles of rubble? Done. Eradicate their
    hospitals? Done. Destroy their infrastructure? Cut them off from
    medicine and health care? Too late. Someone already did all that.
    New bombs would only stir the rubble of earlier bombs. Would they at
    least get the Taliban? Not likely. In today's Afghanistan, only the
    Taliban eat, only they have the means to move around. They'd slip away
    and hide.

    Maybe the bombs would get some of those disabled orphans, they don't
    move too fast, they don't even have wheelchairs. But flying over Kabul
    and dropping bombs would not really be a strike against the criminals
    who did this horrific thing. Actually it would only be making common
    cause with the Taliban--by raping once again the people they've been
    raping all this time.

    So what else is there? What can be done, then? Let me now speak with
    true fear and trembling. The only way to get Bin Laden is to go in there
    with ground troops. When people speak of "having the belly to do what
    needs to be done" they're thinking in terms of having the belly to kill
    as many as needed. Having the belly to overcome any moral qualms about
    killing innocent people. Let's pull our heads out of the sand. What's
    actually on the table is Americans dying. And not
    just because some Americans would die fighting their way through
    Afghanistan to Bin Laden's hideout. It's much bigger than that folks.
    Because to get any troops to Afghanistan, we'd have to go through
    Pakistan. Would they let us? Not likely. The conquest of Pakistan would
    have to be first. Will other Muslim nations just stand by? You see where
    I'm going. We're flirting
    with a world war between Islam and the West.
    And guess what: that's Bin Laden's program. That's exactly what he
    wants. That's why he did this. Read his speeches and statements. It's
    all right there. He really believes Islam would beat the west. It
    might seem ridiculous, but he figures if he can polarize the world into
    Islam and the West, he's got a billion soldiers. If the west wreaks a
    holocaust in those lands, that's a billion people with nothing left to
    lose, that's even better from Bin Laden's point of view. He's probably
    wrong, in the end the
    West would win, whatever that would mean, but the war would last for
    years and millions would die, not just theirs but ours. Who has the
    belly for that?

    Unfortunately, Bin Laden does. Anyone else?

    In Peace,

    Tamim Ansary"

  • #2

    I got that message several days ago. This is what the header said:

    Dear Friends,

    The following was sent to me by my friend Tamim Ansary. Tamim is an Afghani-American writer. He is also one of the most brilliant people I know in this life. When he writes, I read. When he talks, I listen. Here is
    his take on Afghanistan and the whole mess we are in.

    -Gary T.


    • #3
      Prehaps it was written by the Taliban to discourage us from the action we are about to take.


      • #4
        Originally posted by Arriguy:
        Prehaps it was written by the Taliban to discourage us from the action we are about to take.
        Interesting thought. However, anyone who's "up" on world events regarding Afghanistan can pretty much rest assured that the 'data' is accurate.

        I suppose a target-specific ground assault ala SWAT-SEAL-DELTA type teams will suffice. Their own civil war is doing enough 'collateral' damage as it is.

        What puzzles me is just how sincere is the Muslim community in their protest of these so-called non-true Islamic acts of violence.
        My take is that they would be the 1st kids on the block to go after the perpetrators en masse, and hand them over post haste.

        Any community that would discover one of 'their own' comitting acts of shame that would dishonor the community, I would expect to be the most ardent in condemnation and in the efforts of capture.



        • #5
          Originally posted by Pleiadian:

          I got that message several days ago.
          Thnx Rob. And the best 'spin' I've heard to date ...

          "Posted 09.12.2001
          Death, Downtown

          Dear friends,

          I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight from LAX to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an incredible range of emotions over what has happened on the island where I work and live in New York City.

          My wife and I spent the first hours of the day — after being awakened by phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT — trying to contact our daughter at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works near the World Trade Center.

          I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out, leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live.

          It was a sick, horrible, frightening day.

          On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a terrorist incident at the Vienna airport — which left 30 people dead, both there and at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of passengers in each city was timed to occur at the same moment.)

          I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still brings up too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to live… a fluke, a mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still here, there but for the grace of…

          Safe. Secure. I’m an American, living in America. I like my illusions. I walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons through an x-ray machine, and I know all will be well.

          Here’s a short list of my experiences lately with airport security:

          * At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The counter can’t find my seat. So I am told to just “go ahead and get on” — without a ticket!

          * At Detroit Metro Airport, I don’t want to put the lunch I just bought at the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through the metal detector, I hand the sack to the guard through the space between the detector and the x-ray machine. I tell him “It’s just a sandwich.” He believes me and doesn’t bother to check. The sack has gone through neither security device.

          * At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide to catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with my bag — no one knowing what is in it.

          * Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By the time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the passengers to the terminal has left — without me. I am alone on the tarmac, free to wander wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag down a pick-up truck and an airplane mechanic gives me a ride the rest of the way to the terminal.

          * I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us.

          Of course, I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops $5.75 an hour to make sure the bad guys don’t get on my plane. That is what my life is worth — less than the cost of an oil change.

          Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on American Eagle (the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives around $15,000 a year in annual pay.

          That’s right — $15,000 for the person who has your life in his hands. Until recently, Continental Express paid a little over $13,000 a year. There was one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four kids so he went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps — and he was eligible!

          Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is.

          So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the FAA is taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one thing — the bottom line and the profit margin.

          Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security on the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only response is— that’s all?

          Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the “terrorist threat” and today’s scariest dude on planet earth — Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn’t add up.

          Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path?

          Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today?

          Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause — but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can — I don’t know.

          What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact — WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!

          Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!

          Don’t take my word for it — I saw a piece on MSNBC last year ( that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us.

          We abhor terrorism — unless we’re the ones doing the terrorizing.

          We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers!

          We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit.

          We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn’t be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause.

          Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government.

          From the first minutes of today’s events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that?

          Maybe it’s because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. It’s much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesn’t look like us.

          Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn’t want to hear any more talk about more money for education or health care — we should have only one priority: our self-defense.

          Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn’t living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes?

          In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race — you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all.

          The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of “God Bless America.” They’re not a bad group of singers!

          Yes, God, please do bless us.

          Let’s mourn, let’s grieve, and when it’s appropriate let’s examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in.

          It doesn’t have to be like this…


          Michael Moore
          [email protected]
          Michael Moore Home

          [This message has been edited by Marc. (edited September 18, 2001).]


          • #6

            Good post.

            Sadly, we are just as much subject to propaganda as the rest of the world. The dark side of western foreign policy is not always covered in the media.


            [This message has been edited by Pleiadian (edited September 18, 2001).]


            • #7
              OK Marc. I'm convinced, we deserved it. Now if they'll just do the world a favor and come rid the planet of the rest of us the world will be a better place.


              • #8
                I don't think the author intended it as a justification for the horrendeous attacks. There is none.

                It illustrates the point that this is not a simple "The Bad Guys vs. The Good Guys" issue. It is very complex and the hate these terrorists feel towards the US (and probably the entire Western world) has its roots and causes. I think it is necessary to look at what "our" role is in this. Only then can we start to stop terrorism.


                [This message has been edited by Pleiadian (edited September 18, 2001).]


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Arriguy:
                  OK Marc. I'm convinced, we deserved it. Now if they'll just do the world a favor and come rid the planet of the rest of us the world will be a better place.
                  Paul - It is sometimes difficult for me to be at peace. At times I am torn between my indigenous roots & culture (U.S. Southwest/Aztlan/Mexico) with our horrible history of invasion, rape and genocide (+23 million) since '1st Contact' ('Conquest' to others), and the loyalty to God & country as the result of our 'modern, 20th century' upbringing. Our family has a long history of participation in the US military forces & wars, myself & son the latest. Although our participation is in conflict with our indigenous past, the gift of enlightenment has provided some solace. Yes, 'Render unto Caesar ...etc.', but sometimes it is harder than at other times.



                  • #10
                    Thanks guys - sometimes I learn more on this site about current affairs, than I do by reading the daily papers.

                    Shame we can't all meet up for a drink.
                    TD-20, Pair of JBL-Eon15 G2's & Sub

                    Check out the demo tracks to hear my V's at



                    • #11

                      I can no longer hold back.

                      The root cause of the attacks is US foreign policy.

                      I have been debating all over the internet already for the past week, so I will make this brief. Please refer to the following articles if you are interested:

                      Article 1
                      Article 2
                      Article 3

                      Article 3 is of special note, as it was written in 1997 and more or less *predicted* the atrocities which occurred last Tuesday (provided the US kept meddling in the business of other countries, which we did). Now I do not in any way condone terrorism (or even war). But I do believe there is a root cause behind the attacks, and you will find plenty of that to consider in the articles above, should you choose to accept your mission.

                      Roland TD-20 v1.08, various v-drums and v-cymbals, Yamaha KP65's, Axis pedals, Gibraltar hardware, Mackie 1202/SRM450 (pre-china)


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Oz DrumR:
                        Shame we can't all meet up for a drink.
                        Suggestion for the site: a vdrums chat room?


                        • #13
                          we could all use the yahoo messanger to chat with voice!!i love that program , you can chat 20 at the same cool...


                          • #14

                            That original article is from here, Marc.



                            • #15
                              if there was serius interest in a chatroom, I would put one up. Eveytime I do, 2 or 3 people wander in and then it get's forgotten.

                              Let me know.