Rudiments and Stuff

[Alicks]

Sorry to drag up an old topic but...
A little while ago in a topic called "Definitions Please" DJourg asked what the name for a roll that goes rR lL rR lL is. That is a roll where the second part of the stroke on each hand is accented.
I don't know the name but I'm kind of curious about whether this can actually be played.
Sure it can be done open (each hit has a separate hand-stick movement) but when the roll is a bounce type roll, surely it's damn near impossible to make the second stroke on each hand louder than the first.
Can anyone do this/explain how it's done?

Also, sorry to bring up something as un-cool as rudiments on this site but I've learned to trust all you guys like brothers...

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Alicks:
Sorry to drag up an old topic but...
A little while ago in a topic called "Definitions Please" DJourg asked what the name for a roll that goes rR lL rR lL is. That is a roll where the second part of the stroke on each hand is accented.
I don't know the name but I'm kind of curious about whether this can actually be played.
Sure it can be done open (each hit has a separate hand-stick movement) but when the roll is a bounce type roll, surely it's damn near impossible to make the second stroke on each hand louder than the first.
Can anyone do this/explain how it's done?

Also, sorry to bring up something as un-cool as rudiments on this site but I've learned to trust all you guys like brothers...

This rR lL rR lL, etc. roll is simply a double stroke roll. The annotation reads tap/accent, repeatedly. When played fast, this makes for a smooth and even sounding double stroke roll so that all hits are heard evenly. You'll only hear an accent when playing slowly. I herein reference both Dave Weckl's 'Back To Basics' and a Jim Chapin Video Tape (just 2 outta' 17 drumming VHS & DvDs I own).

We should talk more Rudiments! They really do make for technical & badass drummers, I realize.



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Someone Set Up Us Da Bomb!!
-Alex. & V-Drums: http://www.zing.com/album/?id=429276...ulation_page=Y

[DJourg]

I haven't had many lessons in my life, but at one of the few I was taught this little rudiment. Truth is, I haven't seen it referenced anywhere else, except for Alexander's reference above.

Alexander indicates that it is impossible to play with a bounce. If memory serves (we're going back about four years), I did try to play the accented note with a bounce. I pressed the second note into the head to make it accent. I spent many an hour trying to do this thing, I went very slowly.

Trouble was, I was practicing on a PD-7 pad (my old TD-7 set). The hardness of this pad, along with the pressure of trying to accent that second bounce note, well, that was about the time I started to develop my epic struggle with wrist pain, which has kept me off drumming for several months now (just got cortisone shots -- woo hoo, what a party!)

Be careful, be safe.

I don't practice that roll any more, and I never got to the level where I could play it fast. However, I did 'record' my slow playing of this roll on the TD-7's sequencer, and I sped it up just to hear what it sounded like when played fast. It has an interesting, 'rougher' texture than an evenly played roll. It's interesting.

By the way, the guy who gave me the lesson (local music store type who wouldn't give me a second lesson, oh well the place is out of business anyway)called it an 'open stroke roll'. Or was it a 'closed stroke roll'? Don't remember. Maybe the memory and wrist deterioration is connected.

Regardless. Got to go rest the wrists after this long post.

Peace, all.

DJourg

[KuzinRob]

Rudiments are great to know, as once you know them fluently, you can fit them into songs, and rhythms. Take for instance, Neil Peart's line in the song "Scars" on Presto (1989):

LLrl rlrl Rlrr LLrr


Try this pattern I wrote myself (in 7/4, alternate bass/hi-hat 8th notes):

LlrL rLrL rrLLrr LlrL rLrL rrLLrr

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My drums, y'all...
"Get out there and rock...
and roll the bones...
GET BUSY!"

[This message has been edited by KuzinRob (edited May 07, 2001).]

[zmorton]

Let me get in here. I'm a rudimental drummer, Santa Clara Vanguard 1994-99. The rR lL rR lL concept you are refering is more or less a tool in developing a even roll. Which is actually pretty rare in the drum set comunity. Anyhow, I have seen rudimental drummers achieve an actual accented second beat to their rolls. It's achieved by closing the fingers around the stick on the second beat. Kind of killing the natrual rebound. Not very musical, but an interesting texture.

[Alicks]

That's answered my question anyhow, but I don't think I'll spend too long trying to get that effect. Too hard on the wrists by the sound of it.
I'm trying to get more into rudiments myself and I find that even a few new ideas really improves my drumming. I bought "The Complete Drumset Rudiments" by Peter Magadini. There's a great kit on the front, very few drums, sh*tloads of cymbals and DDrum triggers on the drums! Weird.

[DJourg]

Originally posted by Alicks:
That's answered my question anyhow, but I don't think I'll spend too long trying to get that effect. Too hard on the wrists by the sound of it.

Hey, I might have been doing it incorrectly... under supervision by a good teacher it may not be so bad. I'd hate for my mistakes (or my recollection of my mistakes) dissuade someone from acquiring good technique.

DJourg

[Oz DrumR]

Anyone know of an online resource that has the common drum rudiment notation (say in pdf format?). I'm sure I've seen this somewhere before?

I'd like to brush up on mine.

[Alicks]

Oz DrumR,
Try www.drumbum.com They have loads of lessons and links. I'm pretty sure there is a big list of rudiments on one of those links. Don't know if there's anything in pdf though.

DJourg,
Don't worry, you haven't put me off. I have a weak wrist anyway so I'm normally pretty careful. I was just thinking that to get the accent on the bounce means using quite a firm grip on the stick. That normally causes me problems.

[Zorro]

hi, I had terrible wrist problems years ago playing simmonds. My problem was due to improper technique. To hold the stick lightly, use the forearm, wrist, fingers and fulcrum (fingers). for very fast playing, light grip, wrist, fingers. You should be relaxed at all times, never force the stick. The lL rR is achieved by letting the stick drop, then pressing the fingers on the pull up to achieve the second hit. Get a video by Jim Chapin and he explains how this is done is great detail. You mentioned " I was just thinking that to get the accent on the bounce means using quite a firm grip on the stick." Your grip should be loose at all times. Wrist problems can be avoided with proper grip. You can play alot faster relaxed, loose, and use the fingers/ wrist . For power the forarm is used. Ask about the "moller system". I hope this helps.

[This message has been edited by Zorro (edited May 09, 2001).]

[DJourg]

Zorro: Hello masked man

You are entirely correct. I have made the transfer to loose grip....I let the bounce of the heads do the work for me (mesh heads are especially responsive).

However, my wrist problems persist; I've been off drums for quite a while. Was wondering how you rid yourself of yours, if indeed you have. Was the change of technique all you needed? See a doctor?

Thanks for the info regardless...I actually have seen the Chapin video, many years ago (his jazz independence book -- forgot title!-- was essential to my learning jazz). Time to refresh the lesson.

DJourg

[Alexander]

Originally posted by DJourg:
Zorro: Hello masked man

Was wondering how you rid yourself of yours, if indeed you have. Was the change of technique all you needed?

DJourg

HAHAHAHAHAA! LOL!!! He adresses him as the GAY BLADE!!! HEHEHAHAHOOHEHA!!

Ok, that was funny! Here are 3 useful pics that show PERFECT Gripping Form! I used to alternate between French and German. German is a stronger, superior handgrip. I use it exclusively, looking down to be sure the top of my hand is face up, NOT my thumbs. German grip is ideally suited for drumset play. French is better suited for Tympani & orchestral work. Memorize these hand positions and the accompanied text, Damnit!

How to Hold Sticks:

There are two basic stick grips: matched grip and traditional grip. To choose the best grip for you, it's best to study with a qualified drum teacher. 'MG' is superior for Drumsets. Wherein you have a whole plane of cymbals and a plane of toms. Also Omar Hakim describes 'MG' as 'The better way', which fixed his poor posture, shoulder pain, and hand calluses.


Matched grips are shown above. As the name implies, the sticks are held similarly or "matched." Grip each stick between the thumb and first finger to form a pivot. (The pivot point should be about two thirds from the tip of the stick). Complete the grip by lightly gripping the remaining fingers around the sticks as shown.

& for ye olde-fashioned folks:

The traditional grip is shown above. The traditional grip was developed for the snare/marching but is still popular with many drumset players. The left stick is cradled in the "V" formed between the thumb and first finger and rests on the fourth finger as shown. The thumb and first finger surround and "trap" the stick to prevent it from flying out of your hand. The middle finger lightly presses against the stick and acts as a guide. The right stick is held in a matched grip.





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Someone Set Up Us Da Bomb!!
-Alex. & V-Drums: http://www.zing.com/album/?id=429276...ulation_page=Y

[Zorro]

Sorry to hear about your persistent wrist problems. I took ten years off drumming and it cured itself. Starting up again I've researched proper grip extensively as I'm in fear of the problem returning. So far so good. I've practiced up to 5 hours straight and not a twinge. If the pain continues I'd go see a doctor. Sometimes the tendons have a "build up" of material around them as it passes through the carpal area of the wrist. This is fixed by an operation, but hopefully your problem is not as bad as that. I agree those mesh heads are great. I'd rather play on those than real heads, those that's a personal choice. I've met the real Zoro the drummer yesterday. I told him how I got my handle Zorro by flying the F-18 on the internet. Out of respect for him, as not to be mistaken for the great Zoro, I'll change my name. Hope your wrist get better.

[Alexander]

Originally posted by Zorro:
I've met the real Zoro the drummer yesterday. I told him how I got my handle Zorro by flying the F-18 on the internet. Out of respect for him, as not to be mistaken for the great Zoro, I'll change my name.

Did Zoro ask you to change your name?! Does he frequent this board? And where did you meet him? Not that I'm a fan of his , mind you. Just nosy...



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-Alex. & V-Drums: http://www.zing.com/album/?id=429276...ulation_page=Y

[Zorro]

Zoro is a real down to earth guy. He doesn't frequent the board as I mentioned this forum as being one of my favorites (along with D Drum forum and DM Pro forum). When I told him I too was a Zorro, he chuckled. He seemed to get a kick that someone would use Zorro as a nick for flying. Told him I may accindently be mistaken for him on the drum forums and it didn't bother him a bit. For such a great drummer who's played with the best of the best he's a humble guy, no ego at all. His main interest was sharing his knowledge. It was a "one on one" clinic. I told him I use to fly on the internet, and Zorro was my call sign.. He didn't seem to mind me using the same name at all. After meeting him, and hearing his great drumming, I thought I better change my nick as I may be mistaken for the real masked man. I hope he does visit. He will be called Zoro, as I am Zorro (extra r). I e mailed the forum awaiting instructions for my name change. Tried to re register as drumsonly2002 but it will not accept that as the e mail is the same as "Zorro". Thanks for asking. Zoro did show some great stuff I'm using right away, and some nice practicing tips also.