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Anyone add sounds to the DM Pro?

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  • Anyone add sounds to the DM Pro?

    Hi all. I know this is a Roland group and appreciate asking about other products. Right now using a D-5, but want a inexpensive unit to download drum kits into it. Will the DM-pro have the ability of adding the Drum kit from hell samples and others, and play the sample in a "layered" fasion? Will it "machine gun" since it's not an original sample? Anyone know if the D Drum can do this also? I was told the TD-10 with expansion card will give more sounds, but cannot add other sounds from a CD etc. Is that true? Thanks for any replies.

  • #2
    Just for the record, I found the Hart Accusnare works great with the DM PRO as an "anti-machinegun" machine...

    Of course, I'm talking about the presets....

    Now here's the thing....

    I've used the Accusnare to trigger layered samples in everything from the EXS 24 to GigaStudio and it still machine guns like crazy...

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by feefer:
      ... and 'machine gunning' occurs with all modules (for certain sounds, with some playing techniques).
      Not true. Machine gunning has nothing to do with the sounds but with sensitivity, dynamics and speed. The main question is is the module able to translate fast played rolls or does it spitt out every strike as TA.. TA.. TA.. TA.. TA...

      ddrums have no machine gunning.


      Zorro, with the Roland stuff you can't add your own sounds. Even not with an expansion card. The DMPro must have a system with cards on which you can store your own sounds as well, but I never saw it working and never heard a person speaking about this. The only thing I know is there were some software problems with the DMPro.
      Robert

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      • #4
        Hmm, I think machine gunning goes further than that. I agree, a bad trigger module or badly matched trigger will cause a similar effect, but here's another example. Take a snare, sample it being hit very hard, feed it into a sampler, and trigger it. With very soft strikes, you'll trigger the same strong-hit sample, but at a low volume. So press-rolls will sound like hundreds of low-volume hard hits, which sounds rubbish and machine-gunny.

        So I think multi-sample thresholds (or lack of them), smaple crossfades, and choice of samples can have just as big an effect on machine-gunning.

        To my mind, machine-gunning is where you hear multiple strikes on a drum and your brain thinks "That's just the same sample played over and over".

        Personally I think if 127 levels of dynamics (MIDI) is good enough to capture someone like Alfred Brendel playing Prokofiev and be indistinguishable to the human ear from a live performance, it's good enough for our edrums!

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        • #5
          Originally posted by cgrieves:
          Take a snare, sample it being hit very hard, feed it into a sampler, and trigger it. With very soft strikes, you'll trigger the same strong-hit sample, but at a low volume. So press-rolls will sound like hundreds of low-volume hard hits, which sounds rubbish and machine-gunny
          This is not the machine gun effect but
          (1) a bad sampled sound
          (2) caused by play the drums much too loud.

          Machine gunning is not a loud sound (or better:doesn't need to be loud). It is a very unnatural sound with very unnatural peaks in the sound. So even at low volume levels machine gunning can occur.
          Robert

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          • #6
            Alternate Mode has new software that doesn't send note off information during press rolls until it stops, thus eliminating machine gunning.
            Drumkat Turbo 4.5, Emulator X3, Superior 2.1, Roland Fantom XR, DTXtreme III, SPD-20 etc.......

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            • #7
              Most drum modules do not respond to note off information, it's for use with a sampler or keyboard module that will respond to note off info, and I stated it's for rolls. Ddrum uses a modular proprietary sound reproduction system that assigns multiple waves to the same module to keep the decays from being cut off and re-trigered prematurely. This IS what causes the machine gun effect.
              Drumkat Turbo 4.5, Emulator X3, Superior 2.1, Roland Fantom XR, DTXtreme III, SPD-20 etc.......

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              • #8
                Originally posted by jrcel:
                This IS what causes the machine gun effect.
                What? A decay which is cut off and re-trigered prematurely? So the ddrum has a better solution for this? I don't understand the sentence ... a modular proprietary sound reproduction system that assigns multiple waves to the same module ...
                Robert

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                • #9
                  Putt said
                  Machine gunning has nothing to do with the sounds but with sensitivity, dynamics and speed

                  Sorry Putt, I don't mean any disrespect here, but you're only half-right, and the half your missing is critical. Do you think the sounds in the Roland/ddrum/Alesis/Etc modules are just made up of a single sound? Take any snare sound in one of these modules. Hit the pad softly. You'll notice a distinctly different sound than if you hit the pad forcefully. Now how can one sample make 2 different sounds? It can't. Through the use of EQ you can achieve some of that, but our modern machines go beyond that. Velocity XFade (or crossfade) is the name given to the technique of using a different sample based on how hard the pad is hit.

                  So, for example, take an accoustic snare. First record yourself hitting the snare very very softly. That's sample 1. Then record yourself hitting the snare lightly. That's sample 2. Then record yourself hitting the snare moderately. That's sample 3. Finally record yourself hitting the snare very forcefully. That's sample 4.

                  Now, when you're programming your sampler (or your new PDM (Putt's Drum Module)), you assign all 4 of these samples to a single 'sound' that you call "Putt's Kickass Snare". And you program it so that when your velocity is between 1-20 you play mostly sample 1, so it sounds soft. If the velocity is between 20-30 you play a little of both sample 1 and 2, so it has the soft sound, but also the light sound. If the velocity is between 30-50, you play the sample 2, so it sounds like the light hit. If the velocity is between 50-60, you play both sample 2 and 3 so you get a mix of the light hit and the moderate hit. This goes on all the way through the velocity scale. So when someone else plays your new sound, they proclaim lovingly "It plays like a real snare! It sounds soft when I hit it soft and it goes "crack" when I hit it hard!! Putt kicks ass!" Well, they're not really playing 1 sample, they're playing 4 samples, they just don't know it.

                  I'm sure that many of the sounds in the TD-10 use velocity-xfade. A lot of them don't. I suspect most of the cymbals do not use v-xfade. They sound the same if you hit them softly or forcefully. But a lot of the snares sound very different depending on how hard you hit the pad.

                  So machine-gunning *CAN* be caused by a pad that is too sensitive and triggers the loudest sound all the time (the equivalent of triggering your sample 4 from above all the time). But in the context of what Zorro asked, he's wondering if using the DMPro will let him set up velocity-xfades with his samples that he burns to a pcmcia card. Because if not, then even if his triggers are set up perfectly in regards to sensitivity, if he plays a pad softly he'll still only hear the same sound as if he had hit the pad forcefully. Yes the volume levels will be different, but the sound will be exactly the same, and this can sound 'machine-gun-y'.

                  Zorro, I know the DMPro will let you layer up to 4 sounds per note, so I immagine that if you want to put the time into it you could definitely create some decent sounds. I'm sure it will also work fine for just burning samples from SampleCD's for techno stuff etc. Most of those types of sounds don't really need vel-xfade because they're always hitting pretty heavy, but if you wanted to I'm sure you could.

                  Like you, I am also VERY curious to hear from anyone who has actually done this with the DMPro, because I'm also considering buying one. That, or the Korg Triton rack synth/sampler. Our vocalist/songwriter uses a Triton keyboard and man his electronic/techno/industrial drum sounds put the TD-10 to shame. I mean to REAL shame. He came into practice yesterday saying "check out some new sounds I downloaded for the Triton off the internet" and started banging on a drumkit patch. I was so utterly green with envy that I couldn't even respond. I just pretended like I didn't hear them because the guys would see the look in my eyes. The look that says "I can't believe I've put 4k into this VDrum kit and I can't reproduce those sounds if I tried for 40 days and 40 nights." Those drum sounds were so fat and so modern.. I mean, I love my VDrums and love the accoustic sounds and blah blah blah.. but it's definitely time to grow up and look for more serious and modern additions to my setup.

                  Anyway.. I ramble..

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sweet! Thanks for the tip! USB interfacing sounds nifty (I have a laptop I can lug around)!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      >Machine gunning is not a loud sound (or >better:doesn't need to be loud). It is a >very unnatural sound with very unnatural >peaks in the sound. So even at low volume >levels machine gunning can occur.

                      I think you misunderstood me, because we're essentially saying the same thing.

                      Sample a sound of a loud snare hit, port it to your ddrum module and assign it to the snare pad. When you hit the drum softly, you will get the loud snare hit *at low volume*. Hit the snare hard, you'll get the same snare hit at high volume. So for hard strikes it sounds fine, but do a soft press roll and you'll get loads of bang-bang-bang samples at low volume, but it'll sound wrong. It will sound like a machine gun.

                      So yes, it's the wrong sample (at low volume), but nothing to do with the dynamics. The trigger module is interpreting and transmitting dynamics perfectly, but the user has chosen the wrong sample for the audio hardware to play. For me, that's the no.1 reason for machine guning: Modules that have just one, or too few samples for a given patch, or badly chosen sample crossfade points, will machinegun.

                      So there's no miracle hardware that can take one snare sample and stop it sounding like a machine-gun. If you load a single snare sample into a ddrum, it *will* machinegun (or at least, by my definition of "machinegun").

                      I can put together some mp3s to demonstrate if you like- I have an MBD-1 which mainly uses single samples for snare patches, and I can compare it against the sonicimplants samples or the TD-10 snares.

                      There's also one more situation where a type of machinegunning can occur. One of the Sonicimplants snares has four samples for a centre snare strike. If I press roll and increase the pressure, there's a point where I can hear the sample switching from one sample to the next (on the other snares you can't hear the transition). If I play a press roll at that pressure, the tiny variations in the velocity of my playing (I'm not Dave Weckl ) mean that you can hear the sample switch back and forth. In some situations that can sound like machinegunning. Again, not a fault of the dynamics or the trigger module, just a badly chosen sample split point or sample, or perhaps too few samples.
                      I think that's one area where the TD-10 scores- most of the snare patches have completely seamless sample crossovers from soft to loud (probably due to COSM doing much of the work).


                      [This message has been edited by cgrieves (edited March 27, 2001).]

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Louis:
                        Sorry Putt, I don't mean any disrespect here, but you're only half-right, and the half your missing is critical. Do you think the sounds in the Roland/ddrum/Alesis/Etc modules are just made up of a single sound?
                        Ofcourse not, but I did not say that samples were made up of a single sound. Cgrieves said take a snare, sample it being hit very hard, feed it into a sampler, and trigger it. . So his example was the one of taking just one sound. Not mine. And Cgrieves also knows that sounds are not two-dimensional. He only gave it as an example. Just to discuss about the subject...


                        Originally posted by CGrieves:
                        I think you misunderstood me, because we're essentially saying the same thing.


                        We already drunk a beer.
                        Robert

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I think we're all saying the same thing!

                          We can generalise it as "Machinegunning sounds unrealistic". The reasons for this are many and varied. I bet if you sampled a machinegun and fed it into the ddrum then it WOULD machinegun

                          Lets all take a deep breath and have a V-beer, (or D-beer)

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