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How good our v-drums really sound?

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  • gingerbaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonalog View Post

    Nope, just "sensitivity" + or -, no numeric value! Pretty hard to tell if it makes any difference at all.
    Ouch. I am sorry, but I am pretty clue-less about the modules that have come out since the TD-10. I am amazed that there is no way to know if your hits are registering at full value, because that is so crucial to tuning your trigger settings. What module do you have? Perhaps I could take a look at the manual and at least offer some commiseration.

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  • MilosDrummer
    replied
    I don't really mind, but maybe this subject of MIDI values and HH adjustment deserves a separate technical topic... Just to keep the consistency and make it easeier to find, since you've given some useful advice there

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  • Antonalog
    replied
    Originally posted by gingerbaker View Post

    You don't have trigger settings or volume sliders on your module?
    Nope, just "sensitivity" + or -, no numeric value! Pretty hard to tell if it makes any difference at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howstamychi
    replied
    Originally posted by gingerbaker View Post

    OK, let's say it is the number of MIDI steps. But what actually happens if you set a H-H that defaults to 90 to a setting of 127? Does it actually result in a loss of dynamic range or a loss of volume, or is it ignored, or does it "re-map" the increments? I have no idea.

    And - is all this sort of irrelevant to the concept of how to get one's H-H to give you the output volume you want, or is it important, or is it helpful but sort of minor? I remember going through my TD-10 settings and noticing that many pads were not set to a max output of 127. I seem to recall through the mists of time, that when I reset them to 127, the output got louder - recovering some hidden volume in the module. I am pretty sure this was simply output volume, as I have never - as far as I know - gotten involved in MIDI at all.And, as far as I can tell, I have no malfunctioning pads or voices. I do not even have hot spots..
    You may be correct about output of volume, I'm still referring to the High Hat's optimized sequencing from open to closed, the best foot pedal chicks and splashes, and the stick striking edge and rim sounding cohesive and god forbid realistic. That is midi data I want the manufacturer to take responsibility for, just tell me how to set it in the manual or better yet let the module do it.

    The High Hat note # border on lower end High Hats is generally 90 by default.

    I am not against experimenting quite the contrary. The high hat baffles me though and I have yet to find a truly satisfying response from the VH-11 or 12, the best I got was between VEX Studio X sounds and the VH-11. Now it seems my VH-11 isn't working properly so I am really fed up and going for an ATV ADH-14, I don't know where else to go.

    Originally posted by gingerbaker View Post
    I believe I have some understanding on how to get more out of my Roland kit as far as playability and, to some extent, sound quality of voices than some.
    I believe you do too since between you and grog I have eliminated the hot spots on my PDX-100 and PD-128 bc pads. Thank you.

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  • gingerbaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonalog View Post
    hehe thank guys. Yeah I think I'm finally starting to see the justification for the higher end kits, I don't have any of those settings at all.
    You don't have trigger settings or volume sliders on your module?

    Leave a comment:


  • gingerbaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post

    I don't believe I said set the volume output level to 90 but the Midi cc value. If they are the same forgive me, but I think midi cc value as it relates to the high hat is the range of articulation from open to close not the volume. Otherwise I should have said High Note # border. Obviously setting a dynamic range your trigger doesn't support will result in improper functioning. My VH-11 is set to open and close smoothly within a range where the High Note Border # is 90, I believe those extra levels of midi are reserved for the tighter articulations when your foot is depressed on a VH-12 or 13 to get the higher pitched sounds. I'm pretty sure you're high hat doesn't support that feature. My VH-11 doesn't.

    For example, when I set my trigger input on the TD-50 for VH-11 immediately it sets the High Note Border # to 90 automatically. When I use a VH-12 and calibrate it, it immediately defaults to # 127. Best case scenario find the default setting for your high hat in your module and it will set it for you. Also when I calibrate my VH-11 in SD3 it immediately sets the max level at 90. VH-12, 127. I think 90 was always the max High Note Border # for the High Hat until the VH-12 came along but I could be wrong. Sorry if I misused the proper terminology. I am definitely not saying to set the volume of the high hat to 90, make it as loud as you want.
    OK, let's say it is the number of MIDI steps. But what actually happens if you set a H-H that defaults to 90 to a setting of 127? Does it actually result in a loss of dynamic range or a loss of volume, or is it ignored, or does it "re-map" the increments? I have no idea.

    And - is all this sort of irrelevant to the concept of how to get one's H-H to give you the output volume you want, or is it important, or is it helpful but sort of minor? I remember going through my TD-10 settings and noticing that many pads were not set to a max output of 127. I seem to recall through the mists of time, that when I reset them to 127, the output got louder - recovering some hidden volume in the module. I am pretty sure this was simply output volume, as I have never - as far as I know - gotten involved in MIDI at all.And, as far as I can tell, I have no malfunctioning pads or voices. I do not even have hot spots.

    Maybe I am being egotistical - heck, I am often egotistical (!), but I believe I have some understanding on how to get more out of my Roland kit as far as playability and, to some extent, sound quality of voices than some.

    But this was a LONG time ago, and my memory is definitely suspect! Plus, I know very little about MIDI, because I just use the module as is, with tweaking. For playing simple rock drums without triggering other sophisticated sounds in clubs it was enough.
    Last edited by gingerbaker; 02-13-19, 05:15 PM.

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  • dennisdoubleu
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonalog View Post
    hehe thank guys. Yeah I think I'm finally starting to see the justification for the higher end kits, I don't have any of those settings at all.
    It's certainly dangerous down here... and costly.

    Best of luck.

    Leave a comment:


  • Antonalog
    replied
    hehe thank guys. Yeah I think I'm finally starting to see the justification for the higher end kits, I don't have any of those settings at all.

    Leave a comment:


  • Howstamychi
    replied
    Originally posted by gingerbaker View Post

    I'm still playing with a TD-10 exp., so I have been out of the loop for a long time. So, you are saying that many hi-hats do not have 127 levels of midi volume level, but only 90, so you should set your module's volume output to 90, not 127? And this will increase dynamic range? Why?
    I don't believe I said set the volume output level to 90 but the Midi cc value. If they are the same forgive me, but I think midi cc value as it relates to the high hat is the range of articulation from open to close not the volume. Otherwise I should have said High Note # border. Obviously setting a dynamic range your trigger doesn't support will result in improper functioning. My VH-11 is set to open and close smoothly within a range where the High Note Border # is 90, I believe those extra levels of midi are reserved for the tighter articulations when your foot is depressed on a VH-12 or 13 to get the higher pitched sounds. I'm pretty sure you're high hat doesn't support that feature. My VH-11 doesn't.

    For example, when I set my trigger input on the TD-50 for VH-11 immediately it sets the High Note Border # to 90 automatically. When I use a VH-12 and calibrate it, it immediately defaults to # 127. Best case scenario find the default setting for your high hat in your module and it will set it for you. Also when I calibrate my VH-11 in SD3 it immediately sets the max level at 90. VH-12, 127. I think 90 was always the max High Note Border # for the High Hat until the VH-12 came along but I could be wrong. Sorry if I misused the proper terminology. I am definitely not saying to set the volume of the high hat to 90, make it as loud as you want.

    Leave a comment:


  • gingerbaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonalog View Post
    Actually the thing I'm having more trouble with at the moment is getting dynamics out of the high hats on the V-drums. Firstly the shoulder-tip thing doesn't sound nearly as dynamic as it does on acoustic hats, plus trying to play quieter tends to get lost under the rubber thwack sound, it's a bit annoying trying to play 16th notes on the hats for instance. Hats too cheap maybe? Not sure. Hard to beat real life for dynamic range.
    I am thinking this is a volume set-up issue. Theoretically, there should not be a situation where you can not get the volume of a pad voice to be loud enough. Simply put, if the H-H rim "bark" you are looking for is not loud enough, why not raise your speaker's volume or your master output volume as high as you need it, and then turn the sliders on your non-high-hat pads down?

    I have a feeling most people tend to keep inching their sliders up and up until they are all maxed out. This is not how they should be used, I think. Something on your kit is always going to be the lowest or weakest volume, because of a long list of issues - cone wear, sensitivity, sensitivity curve, volume chain issues in the input/output/effects/compression sections of the module, etc. It sounds like for you it is your high hat.

    So, your "weakest" output pad voice is the pad voice that should determine how high you set your speaker volume or module main out volume, right? Set those up so your high-hat bark is as loud as you want it, and then turn the other stuff down. Same for your high-hat non-rim volume. You should be able - theoretically - to get your hi-hat to play quite closely to a real high-hat as far as volume, sensitivity, etc. The good thing is the rim and non-rim do have separate control tweaks. It is a pain, tho, because over time, you have to keep tweaking the controls, but then that is what we signed up for.

    Is this helpful, or am I being too didactic? Or obvious?
    Last edited by gingerbaker; 02-12-19, 12:15 PM.

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  • gingerbaker
    replied
    Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post

    The high hat is the hardest thing to simulate for sure. Just make sure if you are using a VH-11, 10 or anything other than a VH-12, 13 or ATV 14" (I think those are the top 3) you have the High Hat cc max at 90, not 127. This definitely applies to the less expensive high hats that have a separate trigger pedal and do not mount on a real high hat stand. Check your manual to make sure but yours is likely 90 maximum dynamic range like mine. Same goes for VST settings as well as inside your module, bring the High Hat cc max 127 down to 90. This will greatly improve dynamic range. I actually go down to about 83 max on a VH-11. Won't get rid of the rubber sound though
    I'm still playing with a TD-10 exp., so I have been out of the loop for a long time. So, you are saying that many hi-hats do not have 127 levels of midi volume level, but only 90, so you should set your module's volume output to 90, not 127? And this will increase dynamic range? Why?

    Leave a comment:


  • Howstamychi
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonalog View Post
    Thanks, mostly I'm ok with the V-drum kick sound, but getting speed/stamina is something I need to work on (acoustic on the other hand, way harder). Actually the thing I'm having more trouble with at the moment is getting dynamics out of the high hats on the V-drums. Firstly the shoulder-tip thing doesn't sound nearly as dynamic as it does on acoustic hats, plus trying to play quieter tends to get lost under the rubber thwack sound, it's a bit annoying trying to play 16th notes on the hats for instance. Hats too cheap maybe? Not sure. Hard to beat real life for dynamic range.
    The high hat is the hardest thing to simulate for sure. Just make sure if you are using a VH-11, 10 or anything other than a VH-12, 13 or ATV 14" (I think those are the top 3) you have the High Hat cc max at 90, not 127. This definitely applies to the less expensive high hats that have a separate trigger pedal and do not mount on a real high hat stand. Check your manual to make sure but yours is likely 90 maximum dynamic range like mine. Same goes for VST settings as well as inside your module, bring the High Hat cc max 127 down to 90. This will greatly improve dynamic range. I actually go down to about 83 max on a VH-11. Won't get rid of the rubber sound though
    Last edited by Howstamychi; 02-12-19, 09:22 AM.

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  • MilosDrummer
    replied
    Originally posted by Antonalog View Post
    Thanks, mostly I'm ok with the V-drum kick sound, but getting speed/stamina is something I need to work on (acoustic on the other hand, way harder). Actually the thing I'm having more trouble with at the moment is getting dynamics out of the high hats on the V-drums. Firstly the shoulder-tip thing doesn't sound nearly as dynamic as it does on acoustic hats, plus trying to play quieter tends to get lost under the rubber thwack sound, it's a bit annoying trying to play 16th notes on the hats for instance. Hats too cheap maybe? Not sure. Hard to beat real life for dynamic range.
    This derives from the fact stated in many topics here, most recently in the 'snobbery towards electronic drums'. There you can find great examples of drummers playing intricate patterns and wild solos with great dynamics and great sound. Granted, most of them use flagship kits/modules but more importantly, they all are masters of different techniques crucial to playing acoustic drums. Playing and practising on e drums exlusively might get you a fair amount of skill, but mastering the real thing gets you even further and enables a player to depend less on the equipment used.

    I'll just make one example from personal experience. When I sit behind an acoustic set after playing only e drums for months on the ship, it takes more than a week to feel comfortable again. Reverse is not true since after one or two days/gigs on the ship I play without a glitch because I would've been playing acoustics for 90% of the time on shore.

    As for the HH or any other part of the kit, I guess it does depend on the quality of parts and the module, but it also depends on what you listen on (to go back to the original topic). The better the monitors/IEMs are, the better you hear what you play, and in case of in-ears, you hear less of the rubber. Basically, you enjoy more and kind of 'upgrade' the sound and feel of the kit with better sound source.

    Leave a comment:


  • Antonalog
    replied
    Thanks, mostly I'm ok with the V-drum kick sound, but getting speed/stamina is something I need to work on (acoustic on the other hand, way harder). Actually the thing I'm having more trouble with at the moment is getting dynamics out of the high hats on the V-drums. Firstly the shoulder-tip thing doesn't sound nearly as dynamic as it does on acoustic hats, plus trying to play quieter tends to get lost under the rubber thwack sound, it's a bit annoying trying to play 16th notes on the hats for instance. Hats too cheap maybe? Not sure. Hard to beat real life for dynamic range.

    Leave a comment:


  • MilosDrummer
    replied
    With acoustics, one has to use various techniques depending on what sound you're after and what tuning/muffling you use. With e drums, it's all about the feel and response which results in dynamics. So if you set up the triggering to omit the unwanted ghost strokes (caused by burying the beater), you loose dynamic range and the low velocity response, or in the worst case, even fast double strokes. None of this affects the sound itself but can lead to poor playability which results in unnatural sounding kit as a whole. For some genres that's fine, metal, hard rock or pop music rarely calls for feathering the kick. Still, I'd say it's good to have the ability to play as many different techniques well. That way you can adapt to the instrument and still play what ever you want.

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