Welcome! If this is your first visit, you will need to register to participate.

DO NOT use symbols in usernames. Doing so will result in an inability to sign in & post!

If you cannot sign in or post, please visit our Forum Talk section for answers to frequently asked questions.

Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

REBOUND: You need it, and you probably don't have enough!

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • REBOUND: You need it, and you probably don't have enough!

    While unpacking the TD-9S kit I bought second-hand on eBay last night, I noticed a couple of things (which in no way detract from the TD-9---it's a great kit!). First, the PD-8 rubber pads have less rebound than I thought they would for rubber pads. It appears Roland engineered these pads to accurately reproduce the somewhat dampened rebound you get from a somewhat loose tom head. I also noticed that the mesh head on the snare was really loose.

    What I'm about to say will likely be controversial (some might respond with "Hey man, what works for you doesn't work for me")...but I think the vast majority of drumkit players play on heads (or pads) that are too loose and don't provide enough rebound.

    Trust me when I say rebound is your best friend---and you want as much of it as you can get. On kits with tunable heads, you will always get more rebound the tighter the head is.

    It seems like a lot of drummers play on flabby heads...maybe because they think that flabby feel is appropriate for whatever style of music they play. But playing on a flabby head is bad for you---it's bad for your wrists and bad for your arms. (When I say "flabby" I don't literally mean "with wrinkles in the head." I just mean a head that's not tight.)

    It might seem counterintuitive, because you might think a looser head has more "give" and provides a softer playing surface that's more forgiving. But in drumming, the best technique means doing as little work as possible when you play. And looser heads = more work, because much of the energy you put into each stroke doesn't come back to you---it's lost in the head. On a good tight head---and if you're attuned to it---you can get 90% back for every 100% you put in---and that's a great return on effort! :-)

    I've heard people complain about rebound---saying that too much rebound is hard to control. And I get that---which is why if you think this, it would be worth working on your technique. Because being able to control rebound enables you to do amazing things you could never do with less rebound (no matter how studly you are).

    Anyway, I'll shut up now. :-) I just wanted to share my thoughts in case anyone finds them worthwhile.

    Scott

  • #2
    Scott, you are absolutely correct! ...Plus, one shouldn't play their mesh head very loose because of the added risk of damaging the trigger-cone.

    Best to tighten those mesh heads, folks....
    .
    .
    Greetings from Switzerland,
    - Dänoh



    "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

    http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

    Comment


    • #3
      Totally agree Scott! Although many might not.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yep, tighter is better...But don't expect a 16" real floor tom to ever be able to react to your sticks like your very tight mesh-head "floor tom".

        I'm playing 3 Doors Down - Kryptonite with my band:

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPU8OAjjS4k&noredirect=1

        and the 8th note triplet fill toward the end that ends on the floor tom takes much more effort on my aKit then my eKit.
        eKit (TD-30KV): http://www.vdrums.com/forum/performa...y-s-drums-td39
        aKit: (Tama Starclassic): http://www.vdrums.com/forum/acoustic...ma-starclassic
        TD30Browser: http://www.vdrums.com/forum/general/...4-td30-browser

        Comment


        • #5
          Good point kgoroway - if you want that deep, low, flabby sound...it's definitely tough to get much rebound. :-) Which is a definite advantage of eKits. I guess my post is really aimed more at snares and higher toms. I suppose things work themselves out naturally---for example, if you like that flabby, low Ringo Starr-style snare sound, chances are you'll never be playing any 32nd-note diddle patterns on it (cuz you probably aren't doing that kind of music!). And if all you ever need to play is laid-back 8ths and 16ths, then what the heck, make all the heads as flabby as possible! LOL

          I tend to be very rudimental/drum corps in my approach to drumming (just cuz it's more fun!) so I want the tight heads that make that stuff easier. But I'll admit there's a point of diminishing returns, which is best seen in modern marching snares: if you've ever played on a kevlar head jacked up to about 3200psi (LOL)...it's pretty much identical to trying to drum on a slab of granite, LOL. (Not fun.) And even at the top drum corps level, people seriously mess up their wrists and arms after playing on one of those for a while (even with good technique). I've been advocating a return to mylar heads on marching snares for years, but nobody listens---mainly because in the days when drum corps used mylar and jacked it up to 3200psi, they had to replace heads every day (not a joke---the top corps used to have CRATES of replacement heads on their trucks and replaced heads at least every other day...)

          Scott

          Comment


          • #6
            Around this forum many say that mesh heads have a trampoline-like feel at medium tension,
            and loose that "excessive" bounciness when tightened up a bit. I have played on mesh
            heads at various tensions and other than too-loose I have gotten used to mesh.
            Course I am mainly a mesh player, although I have banged on acoustic snares at GC,
            and my doubles work just fine, so I am not crippled by being mainly a mesh player.
            And I can play on any rubber I have met so far, they are all slightly different and I have to warm
            up on a kit if it is different from mine.

            Your post reminds me of a sub-culture that hangs out on drum forums that believes that any rebound is bad.
            Or rather, any technique that depends on rebound means you are playing wrong.
            These folks brag about practicing on pillows so they don't depend on any rebound at all.

            This to me seemed like nonsense, and reflected a lack of even a rudimentary understanding of how drums work.

            That same crowd even claims to practice double strokes on pillows, which means they don't even
            know what a double stroke is. I wanna see them do a buzz (or press) roll on pillows. :-)

            Mini-kit: TD-9 + Alesis Control Pad + Alesis Sample Pad + PDX-6 snare
            Micro-kit: Handsonic HPD-20 + an old pair of hands.
            Speakers: QSC-K10 "thumper", DBR-10 "little thumper"

            Comment


            • #7
              The way I understood it up to now is practicing on a pillow (...without any rebound...) is an excercise to strengten your wrists ie: You have to 'compensate' the missing rebound with wrist-motion/technique. A bit like an 'exaggerated' motion.

              This should in theory help you, once you change over to a (tightly-tuned) head with lots of rebound, because you now can apply this wrist-technique without over-exaggerating it - basically playing more relaxed this way.


              If this really works, don't ask me! ...I've never been so far as to practice rudiments on pillows...

              .
              .
              Greetings from Switzerland,
              - Dänoh



              "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

              http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

              Comment


              • #8
                I'm familiar with the "practice on a pillow" thing. It used to be really big in rudimental drumming circles (and there were guys who could actually play clean double-stroke 32nd-notes on a pillow!) But in my opinion (as kurth83 said) this is missing the point---which is to do as little work as possible. But I realize the "as little work as possible" mindset goes against the macho, "caveman-using-giant-clubs with bulging biceps" mindset of many drummers, LOL

                In my opinion, the most superior technique in the world is simple in concept but really difficult to master---and that is the idea of being so supremely loose and relaxed in your wrists that your wrists and hands actually follow (go with) the natural rebound of the stick---and in doing so, preserve that rebound as much as possible (so triple- and even quadruple-strokes with one hand become effortless).

                In reality, most of the time our hands and wrists kill the rebound because we aren't loose and relaxed enough. You throw the stick into the head, it bounces off the head, and immediately runs into the "brick wall" of a too-stiff wrist. :-)

                Scott

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sounds like I betrayed my ignorance then. :-)

                  I guess I figured playing a double stroke on a pillow was impossible, and those guys were smoking something.

                  So for fun I just tried doing doubles on everything in my house, and who knew, it is possible to do them on almost anything. My tile kitchen countertop did a decent stick roll. :-)

                  Guess I was just smokin my own ignorance, no more bliss for me. :-)

                  The engineer in me tells me it is the stick that flexes and causes the bounce on a hard surface. Something has to flex to get a rebound. In short you need elasticity somewhere. Not so sure the pillow bounce is as simple, but some of my pillows would do a decent double, and some wouldn't.

                  The lack of rebound is a myth, you can't do a double without some kind of rebound (I am sticking with that part of the story), but practicing on pillows may provide some kind of benefit, so I won't argue that any more. And I also learned that you can do doubles on surfaces with vastly different properties.

                  And I may be ignorant again, but for doubles it is the fingers that let the stick bounce (yes?), and for singles it is all in the wrist like you said. :-) And real speed and ease of playing combines the two, loose wrist, and good finger technique.

                  Wrist once, bounce twice, that is the essence of a double stroke. And the stick fulcrum is usually between the thumb and forefinger.

                  Did I betray more ignorance this time?
                  Mini-kit: TD-9 + Alesis Control Pad + Alesis Sample Pad + PDX-6 snare
                  Micro-kit: Handsonic HPD-20 + an old pair of hands.
                  Speakers: QSC-K10 "thumper", DBR-10 "little thumper"

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Totally agree with you on this but I'm also did marching band stuff through high school. I never understood the crowd that claims it's cheating or too easy and all that. For me, it's enjoyable and easier on my joints.

                    While practicing, I totally get wanting to work harder, like the pillow drills which I also used to do. But that's a drill to improve speed, control and stamina. Performing you should do whatever it takes to make it as easy and fun as possible.

                    I never saw a pro athlete where ankle weights, a parachute, or extra clothing in a game. No, they use every possible advantage they can to gain a 10th of a second. Same applies to drumming, imo.
                    TD50 Digital Pack, TD30 and TD9 Modules, custom made pads, Gen16 crashes, and hats plus a few other things that I'm not sure what to do with or why they're still in my kit. Bands: Espada http://www.musicaespada.com/ and JamCo https://www.facebook.com/JamcoEntertainment, https://www.jamcoband.com/

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Some well known drummers have been relearning rebound technique with Freddy Gruber. It makes sense .

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Do you have groove and like what you're doing?

                        Carry on!
                        I be rockin' with the TD-30K.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          So how does one know when and if their mesh heads need tightening? I bought my set 2nd hand and I haven't even considered what the proper buoyancy might need to be. My wrists feel fine, my hands still work, but how does one really know? Is there a quarter test or something similar. I may never sleep again until I find out. Holy bounce back batman!
                          Roland TDW-20 Frankenstein kit: TDW-20 Module, TD-12 Rack. 1 PD-125 Snare, 4 PD-105 Toms, 1 KD-120 Kick, 1 CY-12 Cymbals, 3 CY-8 Cymbals, 1 VH-12 Hi-Hat, DW-9000 Remote Hi-Hat Controller, DW-5002AD3 Double Bass Pedal, Roc N Soc Nitro Rider Throne, Homemade Drumstick Holder.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Well, in order to establish a true reference for this, we would have to collect data using a mesurement-tool like Tama's 'Rhythm Watch'...

                            Else, as long as your mesh-head doesn't have wrinkles in it, you should get by just fine. 'Finger-tight' may not quite work, so give it a turn or two with the tuning-key. The goal here is really to protect the trigger-cone to being exposed to unnecessary 'force' that would occur if you hit it directly!

                            .
                            .
                            Greetings from Switzerland,
                            - Dänoh



                            "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                            http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Just catching up here...after a couple weeks of playing on my mesh-head snare every night for a couple hours, I can say this with certainty: at lower tensions, even if the mesh head has a "trampoline" feel to it (plenty of rebound), you won't be able to play clean/controlled double strokes at fast speeds. That's assuming you're able to play fast doubles (by fast, I mean things like 16th-note paraddidles at 1/4=160-180bpm). Loose mesh becomes even more of a problem if you can play flam patterns (like fast flam accents or flam paraddidles). What happens is that you literally exceed the "bounceback speed" of the head, and you start tripping all over your sticks, LOL.

                              So a tighter mesh head can alleviate this. As said above, there is probably a point where you get so tight it no longer helps...but I haven't found that point yet (partly because I don't want to tear my head!).

                              If you don't play fast, rudimental stuff...and mainly stick to slower tempos and laid-back double-strokes, then you'll be fine with looser mesh. So ultimately it depends on the kind of playing you do.

                              To make one musical reference...if you want to play like Stewart Copeland (of The Police), you'll want a tight head (even if you can dial up his snare sound on a loose mesh head), since he tends to play a lot of flams and fast doubles. But if you're a Ringo Starr/Mick Fleetwood kinda drummer, then keep 'em flabby! :-)

                              Scott

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X