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  • Cymbols

    I have the TD-10 module with out the expansion card. I recently played at a local bar and got great reviews from all the drummers at the bar, that could truly appreaciate the ease of the v-drums. The only complaint that I got was that my cymbols did not sound real. I have a very expensive arsenal of acoustic cymbols, but am wondering what settings people have found that help improve the sound of their e-cymbols. Eventully, I wanted to scrap the acoustic cymbols and get the expansion card, and new roland cymbols. Is the only way to get them to sound real with out the expansion card to go acoustic then. Lastly, in regards to acoustic cymbols has anyone tried them live at a large club. I think that it would be disorienting, with the stage presence of the cymbols being so much louder than the actual v-drums.

    Thanks.
    Adam Dunki-Jacobs
    www.jwband.com

  • #2
    I have used everything from all electric to acoustic to weird hybrid kits in live playing. My current setup has all acoustic cymbals (don't scrap your acoustic cymbals - a move you will regret), and triggered acoustic kick and snare.
    Stage prescence is certainly an issue when using acoustic cymbals and e-drums. It can be just as disorienting to the drummer as anyone else. Try to ensure you have a decent foldback/montior system to offset this effect.
    While the expansion card certainly adds realism to cymbals I just can't go past my acoustics. Try using a combination of acoustic and e-cymbals.
    Steve

    'I only ever quote myself - except when I quote someone else' - me

    , plenty of , and , , triggered acoustics, , and a plethora of PA blah blah freakin blah...I mean does anyone care about the specifics of pedals, speakers, processors, hardware or anything that I'm using?? :confused: Hmmm, maybe this is an appropriate place to mention that I tried out a new cymbal stand the other day...

    Comment


    • #3
      Thanks!

      Actually, this morning I ordered the new expansion card in hopes of a better sound. At this point I am with you as far as, scrapping the acoustic cymbol setup that took me almost 5 years to build up. That is definitely a bad idea to get rid off all of them.

      In reference to the stage presence issue. Have you played live in an average sized club before. I am wondering if just plugging the outputs of my snare, bass, and master to the house PA would carry enough power. I read in another post that some people are running the module to a preamp and a BBE482. I have to play next week and don't have enough money and time to try something extravagant out. Also, what do you suggest as far as effects go. I am planning on turning the room ambience off obviously, but what about the reverb? Does having that "on" kinda smother the actual sound of the drums, and sound sloppy?

      ------------------
      Adam Dunki-Jacobs
      www.jwband.com
      Adam Dunki-Jacobs
      www.jwband.com

      Comment


      • #4
        I would stick to something basic if the gig is less than a week away (unless you have heaps of time on your hands between now and then). The real trick to getting a decent sound is experimentation and this takes time.
        The BBE is an awesome piece of gear and well worth the investment, but to get your sound together, play with the expansion board and just be able to rock up and play next week is a big ask.
        I have been fortunate enought to play at clubs that are too small to fit my whole kit in right through to big auditoriums. In every case I have made sure that I had my own dedicated drum monitor. This is quite necessary when dealing with edrums. There is nothing worse than not being able to hear yourself.
        When using an all edrum set up I always separate toms and cymbals in my outputs. If you don't want to use all 8 outputs then use at least 4 (mono) sends to separate kick, snare, toms, cymbals. Of course you can always just run a single send with all your drums in it but the only control the soundman will have over your sound is by EQ.

        As far as effects and external processors go, read my response in the 'Some hopefully useful sound tips' thread.
        The basic rule is, if you don't have the external gear - does the venue/soundman have some that can be dedicated to the drums? If so then turn all internal effects off and utilise their stuff. If not, then use your onboard stuff.
        IMPORTANT When you split up your outputs, the Master Out pot only controls the level of ambience. Practise splitting up the outputs through a small mixer before the night!! There is nothing worse than discovering this on the first night of use!
        Steve

        'I only ever quote myself - except when I quote someone else' - me

        , plenty of , and , , triggered acoustics, , and a plethora of PA blah blah freakin blah...I mean does anyone care about the specifics of pedals, speakers, processors, hardware or anything that I'm using?? :confused: Hmmm, maybe this is an appropriate place to mention that I tried out a new cymbal stand the other day...

        Comment


        • #5
          dunks99, from the posts I've read, the expansion card for the TD-10 will noticeably improve your cymbal sounds. I have a TD-8, and I find that the cymbal sounds are quite good. Apparently the TD-8 cymbals were better than the original TD-10's, but the expansion card eliminated the gap, so now the TD-10's cymbal sounds are as good or better.

          Listening to tapes of my playing, the sounds I'm most pleased with often come from the cymbals. The worst sounding? The toms. Doing a quick slap on the toms sounds fine, but doing rolls sounds completely fake for most of the tom instruments. They seem to have a hollow sound, in some cases lacking attack, and in other cases lacking fullness and "body". Lots of tweaking improves the situation to an extent. (Of course, I'm not using outboard processing, which would probably help also.)

          Oddly enough, some of the more bogus-sounding toms at first listen actually sound good in the context of a full kit. Specifically, the "Bend" set of toms on the TD-8 (473-478) sound really nice amidst good snare, kick and cymbals, even though they seem gimmicky on their own. Ditto for the "Fibre" toms (333-336).


          Comment


          • #6
            Outboard gear will change your mind about the TD-8s capability when it comes to sounds.

            We finished a gig recently and one lad came up to me after the show and asked how the fu*k I got my set to sound like that. I pointed to my rack of outboard gear. This guy is a proud owner of a recently expanded TD-10 (with no outboard gear and no outboard mixer) and he cant get his sounds to have strong dynamics, depth (his tom rolls lacked the authenticity he was hoping for), toy sounds, etc. After a few minutes chatting, the guys changed his mind about the potential of Vs and swore that he would go out and get some outboard gear.

            I swear to god, I am going to start charging for this.

            Anyway K-Chuck, my point is this dont give up, if you can set some $ aside, you can take your Vs to another level.


            ------------------
            szvook
            Studio

            Comment


            • #7
              A lot of the problem with the cymbal sounds comes from the fact that us V-Drummers have the cymbal settings to low. They sound great in the headphones and through the PA by themselves, but get them out with everything else and they lose all there punch. WHY? The cymbal sounds only attack, the decay gets lost in the mix. Turn up the cymbals helps this a lot. Remember how loud the acoustic cymbals are from behind the kit that is how load the V-Cymbals need to be to replicate the same sound. Next time you listen to a drummer playing acoustic cymbals in a small club with no overhead mics or no mics at all on the drums you will notice the same crummy cymbal sounds all attack no decay(except for the china they always seem to carry nice) cymbals need to be loud when you are fighting to be heard over amplification. Other wise you get a splash sounding cymbal for crashes.

              ------------------
              Ted H.
              www.tocsinrocks.com
              Ted H.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Stixx777:
                A lot of the problem with the cymbal sounds comes from the fact that us V-Drummers have the cymbal settings to low.
                Agree. I've found this out recently tweaking kits for live playing. I have played with different curves and increased sensitivity settings. This also helps get them out front. I think I used the Log1 curve. Tweaking the EQ to brighten them up sometimes helps depending on your system.
                Kit Pic 1 Kit Pic 2 Kit Pic 3... And FOR SALE I have: 3 PD-9's, MDS-10 purple rack w/cables/pad and cym mounts. See classified posts for details or PM me.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by szvook:
                  Anyway K-Chuck, my point is this dont give up, if you can set some $ aside, you can take your Vs to another level.
                  Thanks for the encouragement, svook. I know you've long preached the benefits of outboard processing. I do believe most of the samples have good sound waiting to be coaxed out of them. It will be a long while before I have enough skill (and balls) to gig anyway. For the time being, I'm just having fun playing at home.


                  Comment


                  • #10
                    [QUOTE]Originally posted by szvook:
                    [B]Outboard gear will change your mind about the TD-8s capability when it comes to sounds.

                    What outboard gear do you have?
                    do I also need this whit a T10 expanded

                    Mick
                    Mick
                    V-Pro Concert (purple)
                    TD-10 (not expanded)yet

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Mick:
                      What outboard gear do you have?
                      Focusrite Compounder, Drawmer DL251, BBE 882, Aphex Aural Exciter C2- model 104, Lexicon MPX-1 and Behringer Tube T1951 EQ.


                      do I also need this whit a T10 expanded



                      Having outboard gear (like a BBE) will advance any drum module/sampler potential in sound dynamics, clarity, punch and overall performance regardless of the drum module/sampler out there in the market.

                      The BBE will enhance any sampled sound and bring out their full potential that is not commonly heard just through the modules and their internal signal processors alone.




                      ------------------
                      szvook
                      Studio

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Drooling with anticipation for Fedex truck.......
                        BBE
                        BBE
                        Come to me
                        BBE


                        ------------------
                        td 8,
                        pintech pads,gibraltor rack JBL G2 EON 15 AND Mackie srs-1500, yamaha maple customs, remo jazz kit, buttloads of cymbals... 96 Tahoe,leather.
                        The original Gig Pig.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I was wondering how do you run the kit through the BBE. Is the only way to effectively do it, to just send everything out of the L and R master into the BBE? Otherwise if you split up your outputs to...for instance 6 outputs, you would need three BBE's right?

                          ------------------
                          Adam Dunki-Jacobs
                          www.jwband.com
                          Adam Dunki-Jacobs
                          www.jwband.com

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            For independent processing of 6 outputs you would require 3 BBEs - that is true and that is optimum but it can result in spending more $ and also additional gear to hall but the results in sound/signal performance will speak for them selfs and will outweigh anything that might come mind.

                            But for some, ruining the entire mix out through one BBE is suitable and it does a very good job at that, it all depends on what you are looking to attain. One sonic maximizer can do a good job for a full mix for sure.

                            If using Master Outs, some sounds can be assigned to the Master Outs and then all of them can be ran through one sonic maximizer in stereo I have tired that before and assigned my toms, cymbal, hat, percussion, crashes, etc. to Master Outs and fed the stereo signal through one sonic maximizer (Aphex Aural Exciter, in my case) and patched them to two channels on my mixer.

                            So there is a way to minimize the amount of outboard gear one will need and again it depends on what you want to do.


                            ------------------
                            szvook

                            [This message has been edited by szvook (edited August 24, 2001).]
                            Studio

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              well since we are talking about the bbe... i have the bbe482 and here is what i noticed:

                              we run it l/r on the entire mix..... our first system consisted of 2 main cabs and 2 - 18" sub cab (which are for sale by the way)..... we were running 2 crest v1500 power amps.. the bbe made a noticable difference in that it helped with the highs a lot....

                              now we are running ev eliminator dual 15's and peavey 18" dual black widow bass bins per side, and also added 2 crown ce2000 power amps... now the bbe can add considerable pounding bass....those peavey cabs make concrete shake.

                              i think i may now have problems with phase matching (forgive me if thats the wrong term)... it seems as if the bass from the peavey cabs could be bigger in some spots... seems like the ev cabs may be screwing it up..... svook - can the bbe help that???

                              erik
                              sep

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