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Some hopefully helpful sound tips

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  • Some hopefully helpful sound tips

    I just read a post from someone who played live for the first time with their V-Drums and they were a bit dissappointed with the sound through a PA. I thought I would add my two cents because I struggled a bit to get a real nice sound both on tape and through a PA.

    The first thing I found that helped the most was to remove ALL effects, compression and equalization and zero all onboard studio settings. While these are nice additions they simply can't cut it in an all out professional recording or live setting.

    Make sure you use the line outs and NOT the headphone outs to go to the mixer. The headphone amp may boost your signal but the low quality headphone amp flattens the signal and tightens the frequency range.

    Now for the real good stuff...

    I found that adding a Joe Meek preamp with compressor and EQ. This boosts the signal properly while adding a very tasty compressor and EQ (use judiciously) which will really thicken the sound and preserve a solid attack. I use two VC3 (they are mono, so I needed two for stereo processing). I tested quite a few and these puppies are transparent and add quite a bit to the charater of the sound. In addition I purchased a Lexicon MPX 500 outboard FX processor. This unit generates some very high quality reverb, chorus, delay etc.. The last trick in my rack is the BBE 482. This weird unti has only two controls but what it does for the sound is incredible. I got a tip to try these from a sound engineer friend of mine. Basically it applies a phase shift to the signal that "realigns" the frequency spectrum to match how a loudspeaker delivers the output. In essence it tightens things up but at the same time adds a fullness that needs to be heard to be believed. I also add a noise gate to the end of the chain that silences any stray noise (I keep the settings just above the noise floor).

    This setup works great and really takes the sound of the V-drums up a notch.

    Let me know if this was helpful and I may post how I incorporate MIDI into my rig to add more dimension and flexibility to my sound.


  • #2
    I second the use of the BBE 482. We insert one in the main board and the increased clarity and fullness have to be heard to be believed. I've also used it with my TD 10/Trapkat combo and it just rocks. All this for only $199! Must-have unit.

    Jay
    jg52

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by rherhuth:
      The first thing I found that helped the most was to remove ALL effects, compression and equalization and zero all onboard studio settings. While these are nice additions they simply can't cut it in an all out professional recording or live setting.
      I wrote a similar suggestion a few weeks ago and the guys on this board almost wanted to kill me. Glad I am not the only one who thinks that the dies and tools from Vdrums are perfect to practice with but not for live use. They just enlarge the synthetic sounds which are already there. Hence there are problems with the tom sound live.

      Robert

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by rherhuth:
        I just read a post from someone who played live for the first time with their V-Drums and they were a bit dissappointed with the sound through a PA. I thought I would add my two cents because I struggled a bit to get a real nice sound both on tape and through a PA.

        The first thing I found that helped the most was to remove ALL effects, compression and equalization and zero all onboard studio settings. While these are nice additions they simply can't cut it in an all out professional recording or live setting.

        Make sure you use the line outs and NOT the headphone outs to go to the mixer. The headphone amp may boost your signal but the low quality headphone amp flattens the signal and tightens the frequency range.

        Now for the real good stuff...

        I found that adding a Joe Meek preamp with compressor and EQ. This boosts the signal properly while adding a very tasty compressor and EQ (use judiciously) which will really thicken the sound and preserve a solid attack. I use two VC3 (they are mono, so I needed two for stereo processing). I tested quite a few and these puppies are transparent and add quite a bit to the charater of the sound. In addition I purchased a Lexicon MPX 500 outboard FX processor. This unit generates some very high quality reverb, chorus, delay etc.. The last trick in my rack is the BBE 482. This weird unti has only two controls but what it does for the sound is incredible. I got a tip to try these from a sound engineer friend of mine. Basically it applies a phase shift to the signal that "realigns" the frequency spectrum to match how a loudspeaker delivers the output. In essence it tightens things up but at the same time adds a fullness that needs to be heard to be believed. I also add a noise gate to the end of the chain that silences any stray noise (I keep the settings just above the noise floor).

        This setup works great and really takes the sound of the V-drums up a notch.

        Let me know if this was helpful and I may post how I incorporate MIDI into my rig to add more dimension and flexibility to my sound.

        After spending almost $3500.00 before a sound system. You are telling me that is the only way to get a good sound from these things live? I can see the BBE, but all that other gear seems to me your'e talking alot of money in gear. Maybe it's the guy behind the board that can't get a good sound out of his system, not the drums itself. My experience has been to get behind the board and bug the hell out of the sound engineer until he gives me the sound I know can come from these drums. Put the drums on sequence mode and go out in the audience and listen and adjust the mix accordingly.



        ------------------
        Drumser
        Drumser

        Comment


        • #5
          I have to agree it's a huge bummer to pay all this money for an instrument and then have to pay even more cash for a bunch of processors -- particularly given the selling points of the TD-10's on-board effects.

          I don't play live, but lately I have been entertaining the idea and trying to understand what it will take to cut it in a live situation. I've spent all this time getting to know the TD-10, and I've come to accept it as my instrument, as separate from simply a drum kit. The TD-10's effects and ambience are part of this instrument which I use to shape the sounds. And now I understand that I cannot use those effects and ambience settings live -- I should turn those off and buy more gear. And then spend enough time to get to know the extra gear.

          I don't know. Maybe time to scrap the electronics, to hell with the neighbors and re-invest in acoustics.

          DJourg

          Comment


          • #6
            Hey drumser,

            “After spending almost $3500.00 before a sound system. You are telling me that is the only way to get a good sound from these things live?” – YES!!!!

            “I can see the BBE, but all that other gear seems to me your'e talking alot of money in gear. Maybe it's the guy behind the board that can't get a good sound out of his system, not the drums itself. My experience has been to get behind the board and bug the hell out of the sound engineer until he gives me the sound I know can come from these drums. Put the drums on sequence mode and go out in the audience and listen and adjust the mix accordingly.” – The sound engineer can help you a bit, but you would have run each output from your TD (snare, kick, toms, what ever you have) to the main venue board. Then each output would have to be tweaked accordingly based on what signal processors the engineer will have available. That IS TOO MUCH TIME wasted + the engineer would have to be a nice person to take the time and work with you. I have seen this happen over and over when the TD drummers show up thinking the TD is all they need. Blame Roland for this if you want. I can totally agree how this oversight can piss off a drummer that wants to play using the TD’s and not get the response under the conditions set forth.

            “My experience has been to get behind the board and bug the hell out of the sound engineer until he gives me the sound I know can come from these drums”.

            Are you saying that you have played with edrums live without any outboard gear, just curious?


            ------------------
            szvook

            [This message has been edited by szvook (edited March 15, 2001).]
            Studio

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by DJourg:


              I don't know. Maybe time to scrap the electronics, to hell with the neighbors and re-invest in acoustics.

              DJourg
              Don't do it just yet. Try your edrums live and see what you think they may work fine for your situation. I think that you may need some outboard fx to get the absolute best sound possible out of the vs, but that is true with any set. To get the best out of an acoustic set you need a good quality set which is not cheap. Then you need good mics, proper tuning, a good pa, you need to eq them to the room..........well you get my point. I agree that for the price that roland charges they should not need any outside help, but I guess how much is dependent on your taste and the type of gigs you are playing.

              Kurt
              Kurt

              Pearl drums converted with hart adc, roland kd7's, pd 120 for snare, various roland rubber pads, hart e cymbals and pads, td8, td6, 2 mackie srm450s and mackie sub. mackie sr 24-4 mixer........and always growing.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by rudi-mint:
                To get the best out of an acoustic set you need a good quality set which is not cheap.
                Not always true. I can get a perfect sound from a Pearl Export with decent drumheads and a perfect tuning. Sometimes even much better sound than any DW or Yamaha recording kit...

                Nevertheless the top-end kits have better hardware, a faultless production, a wider tuning range, more colors, more sizes etc
                Robert

                Comment


                • #9
                  Very true putt. I don't know of anything that can make a poorly tuned drum sound good. I also agree that with good heads and some time spent tuning you can make any drum sound good. The key there is time spent, I guess I have gotten lazy in my old age.

                  The point I would like to make to Djourg is, that it you don't need all the outboard fxs to play live. But they do improve the sound. A good pa will help improve the sound as well. I am happy with the sound of my vdrums without fxs, but I am always looking to improve my sound.

                  Putt. I am thinking about using the ddrums with my vdrums. The reason is I am looking for more realistic acoustic drum sounds, and from my research it sounds like they may be better for this. Am I correct in my assumption?

                  thanks
                  Kurt
                  Kurt

                  Pearl drums converted with hart adc, roland kd7's, pd 120 for snare, various roland rubber pads, hart e cymbals and pads, td8, td6, 2 mackie srm450s and mackie sub. mackie sr 24-4 mixer........and always growing.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Look it's as simple as this...You can always improve the sound quality of anything. If you have an acoustic set it might sound nice in your basement but it ain't gonna cut it in a medium to large venue without support equipment then your right back in the same boat with exception of now you will need to invest in some high quality mics.

                    Sound quality is a very subjective thing but the level of the average listener increases daily not tom mention changes over time (remember how cool we used to think everything sounded in the 80s that now sounds like cheese?).

                    I offered these suggestions to help craft the sound of a decent sounding synthetic reproduction. Just as a sound engineer does to help craft the "right" sound during tracking. Guitarists nowadays spend more on effects than they do on their instrument searching for that distinctive tone to personalize their efforts, why shouldn't we be the same?

                    In my eyes Roland gave us the clay I'm just molding the sound into what I want to sound like and sharing it with the masses.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by rudi-mint:
                      Putt. I am thinking about using the ddrums with my vdrums. The reason is I am looking for more realistic acoustic drum sounds, and from my research it sounds like they may be better for this. Am I correct in my assumption?

                      thanks
                      Kurt

                      Yes.

                      Come with me to my hometown www.ddrums.com It will be the other end of Eden (I am drunk again )
                      Robert

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        <<Putt. I am thinking about using the ddrums with my vdrums. The reason is I am looking for more realistic acoustic drum sounds, and from my research it sounds like they may be better for this. Am I correct in my assumption? >>

                        Rudi-Mint, I assume that you already have a decent PC? If so, consider getting Gigasampler LE (about £100) and some more RAM.

                        With the ddrums you'll be limited to the sample size you can use (8Mb compressed), and you'll have to wait for Clavia sounds to be released or convert your own, then download them via MIDI (very slow).

                        With Gigasampler you can have virtually infinitely large samples, as many sounds as your trigger system can handle, and there are many many downloadable professional kits on the internet. Not to mention the capability of professional-level plug-in compressors and effects all in your PC.

                        On my setup (cheap soundcard and Pentium 3-500, Windows 98, 256Mb) I've had no latency problems, dynamics are great, and my sonic palette has extended massively when used in conjunction with my TD-10. Gigasampler has proved rock-solid and stable (it's never crashed on me once)

                        P.S. I'd recommend SonicImplants kits, they are breathtakingly realistic. There's a separate post with some MP3s I made.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Does a Gigasampler has the specific functions from a drum module as well? Positional sening, pressure sensing, velocity switches? Just curious.
                          Robert

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            From what I can see, any MIDI continuous controller can be used to modulate any Gigasampler parameter, so positional sensing, hihat nuance etc should all be possible. You can assign 127 velocity dependant samples per voice (and stack 4 voices together).

                            The patch editing in GS is deeeeeeep. I haven't even begun to scratch the surface....

                            [This message has been edited by cgrieves (edited March 19, 2001).]

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              cgrieves:

                              Thanks for the info. I will look into that.

                              Kurt
                              Kurt

                              Pearl drums converted with hart adc, roland kd7's, pd 120 for snare, various roland rubber pads, hart e cymbals and pads, td8, td6, 2 mackie srm450s and mackie sub. mackie sr 24-4 mixer........and always growing.

                              Comment

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