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Playing the upstroke after tap stroke..

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  • Playing the upstroke after tap stroke..

    Hello Drummer Guys. (Sorry for I'm non-Eng. speaker..)
    I wanna make sure the kinda details of the tap-to-upstroke, like him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oj6N...ature=youtu.be (0:37~)

    I could get something sense of that way by practice, but I wanna make sure it is correct, that is,
    "for using most of the rebound, raise up my wrist softly at the time the stick starts to go up by rebounding of tapping."??
    Last edited by opseaing; 10-20-20, 11:56 PM.

  • #2
    I know Mark Wessels is very well respected, but to me this video glosses over two strokes, actually combining them together - specifically the tap stroke and the pull away stroke. And actually, I see four strokes in the video, as follows:

    (1) Full stroke. Starts fully away from the head and ends fully away from the head.

    (2) Control stroke. Starts fully away from the head and ends one to two inches away from the head.

    (3) Tap stroke. Starts one to two inches away from the head. Drop the stick and pick the stick up, returning the stick to its starting position, one to two inches away from the head.

    (4) Pull away stroke. Starts one to two inches away from the head. Lift the stick away from the head, turning the wrist slightly downward, so the tip of the stick drops and strikes the head. Continue lifting the stick upward until it is fully away from the head. At the end of the stroke, the stick is positioned just as at the beginning of a full stroke, fully away from the head.

    It's important to practice each of these stroke separately, before linking them together.
    Last edited by TangTheHump; 10-23-20, 06:28 PM.

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    • #3
      I feel this type of technique can be a bit difficult to learn without a direct in-person instruction to provide real-time feedback and answer your questions immediately.

      I think what you have quoted is correct, but I didn't really see it presented in the video demonstration. I see the wrist breaking (downward) and the hand/stick dropping down for the tap, then he lifts his hand up without the import wrist movement (which slightly lifts the forearm) so this step doesn't match what you quoted above. I studied the Spivak/Wilson system and after that tap is initiated and we strike the surface, we control the rebound of the stick to keep the tip about 2" off the surface; then, we'll lift the wrist slightly (like a string attached to the wrist is pulling it upward) while the tip of the stick stays in that same relative position (it looks like it pivots on that point); then we 'throw' the stick to complete a down stroke (this is what some call the "whip" motion [though it is not as coarse of a movement as often demonstrated in Moeller technique videos] as it is like a lagging wave motion that is centered on that important wrist movement - after learning the 'grip' it's all about the wrist).

      Here's a great reference on the technique that Murray Spivak & Richard Wilson taught by Jack Verga: https://books.apple.com/us/book/esse...er/id613552663

      If you're in the L.A. area, Jack Verga is the go-to-guy for learning the technique. Here's a video of Jack quickly going through some of the strokes in the Spivak/Wilson system that a student recorded.

      https://youtu.be/xfhnDX90ivQ

      Here's some info on Spivak/Wilson technique from a series of articles that were published in Modern Drummer magazine (this isn't as complete as Jack's e-book above, but lets you preview the type of content):

      Part 1: http://www.kevincrabb.com/MD/Strictly_Technique.pdf
      Part 2: http://www.kevincrabb.com/MD/Strictly_Technique_P2.pdf
      Part 3: http://www.kevincrabb.com/MD/MD_ST3_0112.pdf
      Part 4: http://www.kevincrabb.com/MD/KC-RM_MD_ST_Article4.pdf

      I'd highly recommend checking out the technique videos by Danny Gotlieb. He studied with the great Joe Morello and really shows the importance of the wrist in drum technique. Some of the finer details differ between Spivak/Wilson and Morello teachings, but there is plenty of similarities especial with the wrist driving the technique.
      Here's a clip from a private lesson, but it gives you a sneak peak that important wrist movement:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMp4dsCPb90

      The guy getting the lesson has a couple more clips from that session and has more of that right wrist action (and he really works that wrist the technique is not a finger technique or open/closed, it again is all about the wrist).
      Hardware: TD20SX --> Roland UA-25EX --> MSI GT780DX w/ i7 2670, 16-GB of Ram, Windows 7
      Software: Superior Drummer 2.0, Metal Foundry SDX, Metal Machine EZX, Toontrack Solo - - Sonor X1 Studio - -

      Comment


      • #4
        Up to now, I was not familiar with the Spivak / Wilson approach to teaching an up stroke tap or what I call a pull-away tap. Spivak / Wilson follow the tap with a down stroke. This approach seems somewhat akin to the third and first portions of a Moeller three beat stroke wherein there are these sub-strokes:

        (1) Down stroke, followed by;
        (2) Tap stroke, followed by;
        (3) Up stroke tap (pull-away tap).

        Down, tap, up.

        The down stroke (1) is a whipping stroke somewhat like a control stroke. It starts with the stick fully away from the head and ends with the stick about an inch away from the head. The tap (2) is a literal tap that starts an inch off the head. The stick is dropped and then picked up again, returned to a position an inch off the head. When combined into the three beat stroke, the tap becomes a controlled rebound stroke yet it still starts an inch off the head and ends an inch off the head. The up stroke tap (3) can be considered a pull-away tap. It starts an inch away from the head. The wrist turns downward as you lift the hand and arm upward. As the wrist turns downward, the tip of the stick taps the head, producing a pull-away tap. The wrist and arm movement continue upward until the stick is fully away from the head, now set up for a down stroke (1).

        Spivak / Wilson use the first and third strokes and reverse their order. The up stroke tap (3) starts the pattern and is followed by a down stroke (1). I see why they did this, because they're thinking of certain rudiments, such as alternating right and left flams. By reversing the order of the strokes, you get a perfect setup for playing alternating flams, where each flam starts with a grace note (a quiet note) followed by a loud note.

        Note how Spivak / Wilson combine and overlap four strokes (left grace, right loud, right grace, left loud) into two compound strokes involving both hands, as follows:

        Compound stroke one: left hand starts down and travels up (up stroke tap) while right hand starts up and travels down (down stroke) to produce the right flam. The left and right hand motions occur at the same time, only milliseconds apart to produce the flam effect.

        Compound stroke two: right hand starts down and travels up (up stroke tap) while left hand starts up and travels down (down stroke) to produce the left flam. Again the right and left hand motions occur at the same time, only milliseconds apart to produce the flam effect.

        This approach transforms alternating flams into two compound strokes instead of thinking of them as four individual strokes. This seems like a great way to conceptualize, simplify, and teach this rudiment.

        I watched the Mark Wessels video again. It's hard to see exactly what Wessels is doing on the up stroke tap, especially when he freezes the stroke after the tap, with the stick returned to its starting position an inch away from the head. To me, this looks like a literal tap stroke and not an up stroke tap (pull-away tap). However, when Wessels unfreezes the stroke and plays the tap while returning the stick fully away from the head, at first it appears like a literal tap followed by a pull-away movement. But as Wessles demonstrates the stroke further, it transforms into the Spivak / Wilson up stroke tap or what I call a pull-away tap.

        It's really, really difficult to see this transformation in the video. Notice how the stroke starts as tap, freeze, and up. This transforms into tap then up. And, it transforms again into a singular upward motion with a slight turn of the wrist to obtain the tap. Again, repeating for emphasis, it's not tap then up. Rather, it's a singular upward movement with slight downward wrist turn to produce the tap. This is the critical part of the stroke to observe and practice.
        Last edited by TangTheHump; 10-24-20, 02:10 PM.

        Comment


        • #5
          I love to talk technique, but I hate to write about it because it has so many subtleties and nuances which a difficult to write about in one direction. So much better in real-time, face-to-face, communication. On the surface there are many similarities between grips/technique/systems however, when viewed at a granular level they become very different.
          Hardware: TD20SX --> Roland UA-25EX --> MSI GT780DX w/ i7 2670, 16-GB of Ram, Windows 7
          Software: Superior Drummer 2.0, Metal Foundry SDX, Metal Machine EZX, Toontrack Solo - - Sonor X1 Studio - -

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Hoppy View Post
            I love to talk technique, but I hate to write about it because it has so many subtleties and nuances which are difficult to write about in one direction. So much better in real-time, face-to-face, communication. On the surface there are many similarities between grips / technique / systems, however, when viewed at a granular level they become very different.
            I agree with your assessment: "On the surface there are many similarities between grips / technique / systems, however, when viewed at a granular level they become very different." I used Moeller as a point of reference because it's the closest model I could think of and because it's easy to find information on Moeller. But at a granular level, Moeller is not Spivak / Wilson and vice versa.

            The Moeller down stroke is actually quite different from the Spivak / Wilson down stroke. Moeller starts down, moves upward, and proceeds downward again, with a whipping motion that is generated using wrist and lower arm, and may include upper arm and shoulder, too. Spivak / Wilson starts up and moves downward, using a wrist turn and lower arm movement; it's not a whipping stroke.

            However, correlating Moeller and Spivak / Wilson, in the sense both methods have an up stroke tap followed by a down stroke, they are somewhat analogous. I say "somewhat analogous" because the physics are different (as just noted) and while it's possible to start a Moeller pattern from the up stroke tap (i.e. without a whipping down stroke), this breaks the Moeller method. So yes, on the surface, somewhat similar, but at the granular level not similar at all.
            Last edited by TangTheHump; 10-26-20, 01:28 PM.

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            • #7
              Yeah, you may think like the way: just helping the motion going up to the top position by rebounding of the tap stroke.

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              • #8
                I am practicing on my routines.
                You can practice with paradiddles really slowly and exaggerating the movements to get comfortable with it, evolving speed over time: down tap tap up. Increasing the speed will reduce the extension of the movements.

                Ronaldo B.

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