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Kick Drum Rebound and Burying the Beater

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  • Ericdrumz
    replied
    Wanja Gröger.. imo, he's the ultimate 'metal' drummer.. -hands and feet- (pedals doesn't matter to him either..)

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  • 'lectric drumma
    replied
    Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
    When I provide the drums, I always use non-ported Remo P3 coated heads (front and back) on the bass drum. Regardless of bass drum size, I set the beater so it hits dead center, which means I use a riser with smaller bass drums.
    Well, on the a-kit, I "used" to have the pedal hit the bass drum (22") dead center. Suddenly there was this double pedal, I just put it on the bass drum, and the beaters are a bit above dead center. At first I thought, "wow, these pedals are loud!", then I noticed they were above center. So I put them lower, and I lost power, and it felt weird. I put them higher again, works great. On top of that, I 've been reading a bit on this quite some time ago, after my experience, and if I remember correctly, quite a bit of people advice to put the pedal a bit above dead center... Any one else an idea on this?

    You may want to check this out! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tNg_9b8FBhA Looks a bit like heel-toe, but isnt. Crap, my heel toe works quite OK with my left foot, on this I don't seem to manage on the a-kit. Maybe because of different pedals? Simple Mapex P500TW double pedal on the a-kit (which actually is a nice pedal) vs Axis A-Longboards on the e-kit.


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  • Kaerio
    replied
    I have the exact same R-drum bass drum trigger. Without modification, I can't bury the beater too. But adding foam, pillow and other materials everywhere under the trigger, between the bar and the head, make it possible easily. So it's really easy to be able to bury the beater like on a real head. I just need to "up" the sensitivity of the trigger in the module a bit.

    But even like that, I try to not bury the beater. Because it's more difficult at first, but become a habit. And if needed, it's so easy to bury the beater. The opposite is not true.

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  • Calabash17
    replied
    My pleasure Tang, It will make your Kick quieter & just a more pleasant tone for those around you that don't have headphones on that are plugged in to your drum module.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Calabash17,

    ...So I took a Sound Percussion drum mute pad and attached it to center on my kick drum were the beater hits. A thick mouse pad would probably do the same thing. (snip) ...it feels a lot like when I was playing an acoustic head. The rebound is good, but it doesn't feel like my beater is a super ball bouncing on a hard wood floor anymore.
    I don't bury the beater, but this sounds like a great idea for making the bass drum pad feel better! And, I bet it makes the bass drum pad a bit quieter, too. I'm going to give this a try. Thanks for sharing this!

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  • Calabash17
    replied
    I had the same problem you are having when I went to a Mesh kick head from acoustic head. I agree with the other posters that this is a technique issue, and changing technique is the best solution. But I'm an old man, to stubborn to do that.So I took a Sound Percussion drum mute pad and attached it to center on my kick drum were the beater hits. A thick mouse pad would probably do the same thing. I use a Kat Perccusion beater. I don't have any triggering problems, it feels a lot like when I was playing a acoustic head. The rebound is good, but it doesn't feel like my beater is a super ball bouncing on a hard wood floor anymore.

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  • Ericdrumz
    replied
    context post was deleted by mod
    Last edited by Ericdrumz; 10-11-17, 12:33 PM.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Originally posted by JmanWord View Post
    I guess most of us that started on acoustic drums would normally not have the habit of burying the beater, except when using that technique on purpose, like in some jazz beats. Playing acoustic kick I would never hold the beater against the head in normal play. I guess that is why I never experienced that particular triggering issue with edrum kicks, whether stock pads or my own 22" eKicks.
    I'm not sure burying the beater is any more or less prevalent on acoustic versus electronic drums. It seems to be something certain drummers feel more natural with than others. For example, as best I understand, Jeff Porcaro buried the beater. That seemed to be his main bass drum technique. He played using a heavily dampened bass drum so spurious notes were not a problem.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Kabonfaiba,

    "Well that's just my point Tang, I'm not burying the beater on e-drums, and it doesn't make any difference to the sound."

    On electronic drums, you're right that playing into the head versus out of the head makes no difference to the sound. However, playing out of the head offers the ability to use bass drum techniques that cannot be done when playing into the head. Also, playing out of the head, for the most part, eliminates spurious triggering. I'm not saying never play into the head, but if playing into the head is your only bass drum approach, then you lose an entire range of bass drum techniques and musical options.

    "I HAVE to bury the beater on these guest a-drums I play on, because they cause such horrible overtones if I leave the heads ringing."

    You're burying the beater to deal with unpleasant bass drum overtones? Re-tune the bass drum or bring a pillow and lean the pillow against the resonant head. If the bass drum has a microphone, pull the microphone back a bit from the drum, so that the microphone doesn't pick up as many overtones. Maybe the bass drum heads are shot? If so and if feasible, replace the heads.

    "I contend with lack of rebound on the KT-10... (snip)"

    I'm really interested in the KT-10, but your statement above gives me concern. So, the KT-10 has no rebound? Could you provide more details, please? Thank you in advance! :-)

    "...from playing a-drums where I have to force my foot against the head to keep the noise under control, my situation is as abnormal as it gets."

    One shouldn't have to "force a foot against the head to keep noise under control". If odd sounds from the drum are a problem, fix the drum. If playing quietly is the main concern, learn and use appropriate techniques for playing quietly. There is a huge range of technique all around playing quietly - what Dom Famularo calls "learning to play in first gear". For example, there are first gear Moeller strokes (downstroke, tap stroke, and pickup / up stroke) that involve only the fingers; no wrist and no arm movement. You can use these techniques on bass drum too, by using your smallest mass and muscle groups, such as toes, ball of the foot only, and ankles. Also, there is the bass drum feathering technique. There are many other techniques for playing quietly. This is one of the most challenging (and fun) areas of technique.

    "Didn't know the Roland's bass drum detection model was a con. That's disappointing. I would have thought the algorithm would have looked at the waveform length or background noise to detect whether to mute the overtones after the sample is triggered, not just bake all top velocity samples with the same effect."

    Yes, sadly, it's a ruse. Literally, they just bake all the top velocity levels with muted samples. They do this only with certain bass drum instruments. It's really annoying when you have a bass drum instrument that otherwise sounds great, but that has baked muted samples at the top of its velocity range. Those muted samples trigger regardless of whether you play into the head or not. So, while you're playing, if you accidentally play into the muted velocity range, the bass drum mutes. Playing out of the head has no impact. Consequently, on Roland TD modules, I avoid all bass drum instruments that have this property.

    "The video above is more in tune with me. I follow the Todd Sucherman philosophy of being sound lead above technique - by which I mean following the technique that gives me the sound I want, and vary between techniques in the moment. Burying the beater makes sense to me because I hate boomy bass as much as I love ringy snares."

    I agree with the philosophy that getting the sound and musical output you want should lead technique. However, there are certain techniques that are limiting (musically), or damaging to the body, or damaging to the drums, and in these instances looking for different technical approaches to achieve the same sound (without the damaging side effects) is often desirable. For example, there are many ways to rein in a booming bass drum, of which burying the beater is one approach. I do think burying the beater can be useful musically, but I don't think I'd want it as my core (or only) bass drum approach.
    Last edited by TangTheHump; 09-10-17, 12:24 PM.

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  • Macarina
    replied
    These comments are better than I expected. While it feels very normal and comfortable to bury the beater, I now have a better understanding, this technique is limiting.

    I'm going to work on these techniques. Put the 22" back into the kit. Tighten the head to normal. Loosen the tension on the peddle. Take a closer look at my sitting and watch the hell out of these videos. And practice, practice, practice.

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  • Kabonfaiba
    replied
    Well that's just my point Tang, I'm not burying the beater on e-drums, and it doesn't make any difference to the sound. I HAVE to bury the beater on these guest a-drums I play on, because they cause such horrible overtones if I leave the heads ringing.

    I contend with lack of rebound on the KT-10, trying my best to keep the beater in balance, from playing a-drums where I have to force my foot against the head to keep the noise under control, my situation is as abnormal as it gets.

    Didn't know the Roland's bass drum detection model was a con. That's disappointing. I would have thought the algorithm would have looked at the waveform length or background noise to detect whether to mute the overtones after the sample is triggered, not just bake all top velocity samples with the same effect.
    Last edited by Kabonfaiba; 09-10-17, 08:13 AM.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    BWaj,

    Originally posted by BWaj View Post
    This is awesome, thanks for sharing it!
    Glad it was useful to you! The constant release approach was quite the eye opener for me.

    One of Jojo Mayer's concepts is bass drum pedal springs are a tradeoff. On the one hand, high spring tension brings the beater back from the head quickly. However, the flip side is you must fight against spring tension when moving the beater toward the head. Jojo's approach is to use the least amount of spring tension possible (thus minimizing negative influence on toward the head movement) and combine rebound, constant release, and spring to get the beater back from the head. For this to work, you must adjust your bass drum pedal for maximum range of motion (maximum beater travel) and minimum spring tension. Most bass drum pedals, by default, out of the box, are set so the beater only comes back a few inches from the head. I've got my beater set so that it comes all the way back to my shin. There are many pluses to maximizing the beater's range of motion. For example, you can obtain a much more powerful stroke, both heel down and heel up.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Originally posted by Kabonfaiba View Post
    Burying the beater makes sense to me because I hate boomy bass as much as I love ringy snares. Of course, doesn't make a smidgen of difference to e-drums, unless you're playing on a TD-30 / TD-50 with the kick detection model working. Roland sure had minds in the right place with these things. It's incredible really.
    Actually, not burying the beater makes a huge difference on e-drums. The problem with burying the beater is it disables your ability to use rebound. The use of rebound is the single most important physical property that enables a host of drumming techniques, including bass drum techniques. Want to use Moeller technique on the bass drum pedal? You must use rebound and play out of the head, regardless of whether you're playing on an acoustic bass drum or an electronic pad. Want to use push-pull technique on the bass drum pedal? You need rebound. Want to use the roll out heel up technique? Yep, you need rebound and you must play out of the head. And so on. When you bury the beater, you lose a host of bass drum techniques and musical approaches. Consider taking a stick, hitting a drum, and pressing the stick into the drum head as the end of the stroke. That's the impact of burying the beater on a bass drum. Worse, it transfers the impact into your body. Another benefit of playing out of the head is, just like hand technique, this is the foundation for avoiding impact traveling into your limbs, joints, and body.

    About Roland's bass drum detection model. I despise this because it's not actually detecting a beater buried in the head. Rather, Roland simply places muted samples at the upper end of the velocity range and these muted samples trigger regardless of whether you bury the beater or not. So the problem is, when you dig in to get a larger sound (such as playing heel up with more leg in the stroke), instead of getting a bigger sound, you get a muted, bury the beater sound. And, the sound is spurious. Try playing four-on-the-floor while digging in. That stupid, muted, "bury the beater" sound keeps spuriously triggering. Ugh. I avoid any of the TD instruments that have this.
    Last edited by TangTheHump; 09-10-17, 11:15 AM.

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  • Kabonfaiba
    replied
    The video above is more in tune with me. I follow the Todd Sucherman philosophy of being sound lead above technique - by which I mean; following the technique that gives me the sound I want, and vary between techniques 'in the moment'.

    Burying the beater makes sense to me because I hate boomy bass as much as I love ringy snares. Of course doesn't make a smidgen of difference to e-drums, unless you're playing on a TD-30 / TD-50 with the kick detection model working. Roland sure had minds in the right place with these things, it's incredible really.

    Leave a comment:


  • JmanWord
    replied
    Here is a little video that talks about acoustic kick drum play and burying the beater:

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