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  • How to Count These Notes?

    Can someone please help to explain how to count the beats "9" in red circle. And how to mark them in Guitar Pro 6. I try to replicate the arrangement with Guitar Pro 6 for my own practice. Thanks.

  • #2
    Hi kktkhor,

    strange: here is my best guess, developed step-by-step.

    Triplet notes fill 3 notes into the time of a quarter note. There are several ways to count it. I like:
    One-tri-plet Two-tri-plet Three-trip-let Four-trip-let (in a 4/4 tact)

    Nineths-notes, should they exist, would atempt to fill 3 notes into the time of one of the three triplet notes. So a way to count it could be like:

    One + e + a Two + e + a Three + e + a Four + e + a (in a 4/4 tact)

    Please note that the additional bars used in the sheet notes can be puzzling and sound quite the same. E.g. think of:

    a) a quarter note
    b) an eigth note followed by an eigth pause

    You can't hear the difference on a drum set. On a guitar you could damp the string right before the eight pause.


    So, with this said, analyzing your notes it appears to be a 6/4 tact. For my own oreintation I put the quarter notes counting in blue. The pure triplet note counting should be evident.

    In red I put my best guess, with the silent (trip)-spoken triggers in the second row. From a logical point of view the third note with the 4 bars can only be understood as the beginning of the 9th-notes, starting at "tri". If it was intedned in a different way, there would appear only one "9" in the footer line notation.

    Hope this helps, Michael
    Attached Files
    Last edited by MS-SPO; 09-12-15, 09:09 AM.
    td-30 user ;-)

    Comment


    • #3
      My bad. This is a 6/8 (The Spirit Carries On by Dream Theater). I should have explained it earlier. Will this make any difference?

      From what I hear from actual song, it sound like a triple roll. :P
      Thanks.

      Comment


      • #4
        Hi,

        no problem ; -)

        For the counting it doesn't really matter. If it's 3/4 you'd count:

        One Two Three

        If it's 6/8 you'd count:

        One - and Two - and Three - and


        So the counting line I put in red would read like:

        One .. plet / and .. plet / Two .. plet / and .. plet+e+.. / Two .. .. / and+e+.. tri plet

        where the .. dots denote the silent or suppressed notes. Just to make the flow in time a bit more visible ; -)


        For the triplet rolls:
        It may be that the notation is not exact at the part you are interested in. A triplet roll would sound like this: http://www.40drumrudiments.com/triple-stroke-roll/ .

        If it is the end of the intro you talk about, shortly after 01:23 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-J6PPkKBXoU , then I think, the notation is not true enough to reflect the drummers part.

        If it was something like a triplet roll in note 6 (my comments in blue) in your circled region in red then you'd hear something like

        da-da-da da-da-da

        but what I hear is more like

        da-.da da-.da
        or
        da-da-.. da-da-..

        Hearing this phrase several times, it's probably the second choice, as there is a tiny pause between the two "rolls" (two strokes, not three).

        If so, the critical part would count like:

        Two .. .. / and+e+.. tri+e+.. plet


        To verify I'd perform one of these options:
        1. trying to get professional sheet notes about this part
        2. find a musician, who mastered this bar already and ask
        3. run a frequency analzer, e.g. in waterfall mode (then you can follow notes and timing more easily)

        Choice #1 is certainly the most expensive one.
        Choice #2 may work out very well .. and who knows about positive side effects ? ; -)
        Choice #3 is for techno-geeks, sometimes notes played are easy to see (it's much like many drum sheets at once), sometimes e.g. bass-guitar and bass-drum coincide.


        Best, Michael

        P.S.: and listening again it's probably meant to be:

        Two .. .. / and+e+.. tri+e+..

        (without the plet at the end. if so, the number of notes fit your sheet notes, and make the obscured timing a bit more understandable ; -)
        Last edited by MS-SPO; 09-13-15, 05:13 AM.
        td-30 user ;-)

        Comment


        • #5
          Hi Michael,

          I have the gp5 version of this music sheet. The software allows me to turn off other instruments & listen/learn just the drum track. Hence, following the beats was not the hard part. The thing tumbled me was counting. But your respond has been very helpful. Thanks a bunch.

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi kktkhor,

            thank you, you are welcome ; -)
            td-30 user ;-)

            Comment


            • #7
              kktkhor,

              The chart you've posted seems to contain several errors. Perhaps someone was in the middle of editing and posted incomplete results? Is this your own transcription? At any rate, whether the time signature is 6/8 or not, the chart, as written, doesn't make sense. Therefore, I'll correct it based on where the notes seem to go.

              You may know this already, but let's review the definition of a tuplet: Tuplets are used to write rhythms beyond the beat divisions usually permitted by the time signature. For example, triplet eighth notes in a 4-4 time signature divide the quarter note into three instead of two. More formally, a tuplet divides its next higher note value by a number of notes other than given by the time signature. For example, a triplet divides the next higher note value into three parts, rather than two. Tuplets may be: duplets, triplets, quads, quintuplets, sextuplets, etc.

              Okay. Here's my beat-by-beat breakdown of the chart, as follows:

              First beat: Tuplet: three 16th notes in the time of 2 (8th followed by 16th) = one 8th note

              Second beat: Tuplet: three 16th notes in the time of 2 (8th followed by 16th) = one 8th note

              Third beat: Tuplet: three 16th notes in the time of 2 (8th followed by 16th) = one 8th note

              Forth beat: Tuplet: three 16th notes in the time of 2 (8th followed by two 32nds) = one 8th note

              Fifth beat: Eighth note (tuplet mark underneath seems like an error so I removed it)

              Sixth beat:
              Things get a little odd here and it seems there are several errors (multiple erroneous tuplet 9 markings and a missing note). I'm going to assume the triplet phrasing continues on this beat. This figure is a reverse of the figure seen on beat four with one change: instead of two 32nd notes occupying the space of a 16th note, there are four 64th notes, not the three 64th notes erroneously written. With this change, once again we have a tuplet of three 16th notes, albeit an odd one where the first 16th note is represented by four 64th notes and the next two 16th notes are represented by an 8th note. I re-wrote this figure accordingly. Tricky to play. Consider counting triplets for each beat of the 6/8 bar: 1 - te - ta, 2 - te - ta, 3 - te - ta, 4 - te - ta, 5 - te - ta, 6 - te - ta. On the sixth beat, four 64th notes occupy the "6" (the first 16th note of the triplet) and the remaining 8th note occupies the "te" and "ta" (the second two 16th notes of the triplet). Wow! Tough timing! You've got to land that 8th note on the middle note of the triplet. Not an easy thing to do, especially if the tempo is fast.

              Edited to add: I'd never heard the song and just saw the link Michael (MS-SPO) posted. He's right. That chart doesn't reflect the fill the drummer is playing - if that's what the chart represents. I could transcribe it, but presently it's late and I'm tired! There is another option in addition to the ones Michael suggested. I use this when transcribing. Import the audio into Audacity (a free, open source audio editor) and use Audacity's time stretch functions to slow down the audio without altering the pitch. Here, I'll do this quickly for you now and attach the file. Now you can transcribe it yourself. Hope this helps. :-)

              Files attached:

              Chart with Quad Figure Correction (doesn't match actual fill, but it's what chart seems to be)
              spirit_quad_chart.png

              Chart Audio 60 BPM (doesn't match actual fill, but it's what chart seems to be)
              spirit_quad_audio_60.mp3


              Chart Audio 100 BPM (doesn't match actual fill, but it's what chart seems to be)
              spirit_quad_audio_100.mp3


              Actual Fill Slowed Down (listen to this and try transcribing it yourself)
              spirit_fill_slowed.mp3

              Attached Files
              Last edited by TangTheHump; 09-21-15, 05:25 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                kktkhor,

                I took another look at your chart, as written. The only other reasonable interpretation I can make without altering the chart is to interpret the sixth figure as a tuplet within a tuplet. In this case, it's a triplet within a triplet.

                Consider the three notes of a triplet. These can be anything you want them to be: single notes, doubles, triples, quads, etc. Or, as in the chart, they can be hybrid figures like an 8th note and a 16th note - the 8th note occupies the first two notes of the triplet and the 16th occupies the last note of the triplet. Therefore, I decipher as follows. The sixth figure starts as a triplet of three 16th notes. The fist 16th note is occupied by an actual 16th note. The second two 16th notes are occupied by an 8th note. This figure is the reverse of the figure on beats 1, 2, 3. Let's look at that first 16th note again. We can subdivide this note into two 32nd notes. Now consider a 64th note triplet that occupies the space of two 32nd notes. That's the only way I can make the three notes (as written) fit. It's essentially a triplet as the first beat of another triplet (or a triplet within a triplet).

                So, starting from the beginning of the sixth beat again... we still have a 16th note triplet figure underlying the entire thing. The first 16th note is occupied by a 64th note triplet and the following two 16th notes are occupied by an 8th note. This is tricky to play and as the tempo increases, the figure is pretty hard to distinguish from other note-dense figures. Compare this figure with the 64th note quad in the prior example. Though the lilt is ever so slightly different, it's pretty hard to tell between the two at tempo.

                Regarding difficulty factor. Consider the raw 16th note triplet once more. The 64th note triplet occurs on the first note of that outer triplet. The following 8th note starts on the middle note of the outer triplet! Wow! Yes, that's tricky to play, especially at moderate tempos and higher. I'll underline, this is not what the drummer plays in the fill on the actual Dream Theater song. Though the chart is an incorrect transcription, none-the-less, it's an interesting exercise to decipher what the notes were seemingly intended to be.

                Here's what the triplet within a triplet looks like:

                Chart with Triplet within Triplet Figure Correction
                spirit_triplet_chart.png

                Chart Audio 60 BPM
                spirit_triplet_audio_60.mp3


                Chart Audio 100 BPM
                spirit_triplet_audio_100.mp3

                Attached Files
                Last edited by TangTheHump; 09-21-15, 05:36 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi TangTheHump,

                  To be sincere, I do not understand what triplet within triplet is yet (still a beginner I'm :P ). Anyway, I think the initial chart is somewhat off. I have keyed the notes into Guitar Pro & the software flagged out red (means something off).

                  I use Audacity to slow down the song & observe the wave form. This is what I come up with. Well, it sound correct to my ear. I am not too sure about both the floor tom notes (or kick?), I hardly can hear them in actual song.

                  Thanks for your detail explanation, it has helped me to think deeper & corrected my initial chart.
                  Attached Files

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    kktkhor,

                    There are still some notes / rhythms in your transcription of that fill that don't line up mathematically with the time signature of the song. Later this week, I'll take another listen and post a transcription. After a quick listen again (just now), I already know there are certain road markers in that fill. The only triplet figure I hear is on beat 1 and not all notes of the triplet are sounded. There's a pick-up on & of 2 and the next note lands on 3. Beat 4 is played as single note of full duration. That leaves beats 5 and six. Both beats (5 and 6) have multi-note figures that precede their downbeat, landing directly on the beat and leaving the rest of the beat as a rest. I'll listen in more detail to figure out what those figures are and then write the thing out. Won't be able to get to this until later in the week, but I'll do it as soon as I'm able.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                      kktkhor,

                      There are still some notes / rhythms in your transcription of that fill that don't line up mathematically with the time signature of the song. Later this week, I'll take another listen and post a transcription. After a quick listen again (just now), I already know there are certain road markers in that fill. The only triplet figure I hear is on beat 1 and not all notes of the triplet are sounded. There's a pick-up on & of 2 and the next note lands on 3. Beat 4 is played as single note of full duration. That leaves beats 5 and six. Both beats (5 and 6) have multi-note figures that precede their downbeat, landing directly on the beat and leaving the rest of the beat as a rest. I'll listen in more detail to figure out what those figures are and then write the thing out. Won't be able to get to this until later in the week, but I'll do it as soon as I'm able.
                      Take your time. It is very helpful of you .
                      I am off for a week of hiking trip from this weekend onward so can't check on this post during that period. Thanks a bunch.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I was considering that its not too difficult to learn music but from when I have started learning music, I found that music is not only difficult but too much difficult. Its only looks simple. Anyways, currently I am in 9th standard and working hard to get good marks in exams. I have got 9th Class Notes pkplanet(.)com/9th-class-notes-books-guess-papers-past-papers/ for preparation. Anyways, thanks for sharing the nice piece of information with us.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          kktkhor,

                          Bad me. Just saw this resurrected thread. Forgot to come back and post the transcription I promised. Sorry about that, kktkhor. Honestly, I no longer have the audio files and transcription (score) files I created. This thread seems long since done so I'm not going to resurrect my efforts at this point. Again, sorry I forgot to come back and post a proper transcription.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            I think this guy explains it well. Language warning in the video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_8iD5xS1hI
                            TD50 Digital Pack, TD30 and TD9 Modules, custom made pads, Gen16 crashes, and hats plus a few other things that I'm not sure what to do with or why they're still in my kit. Bands: Espada http://www.musicaespada.com/ and JamCo https://www.facebook.com/JamcoEntertainment, https://www.jamcoband.com/

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by BWaj View Post
                              I think this guy explains it well. Language warning in the video! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_8iD5xS1hI
                              Dude missed the lead-in, but other than that it's spot on. :-)

                              Comment

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