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TD-30K threshold/sensitivity limitation

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  • TD-30K threshold/sensitivity limitation

    To all Td-30K players here! I and my drummer are struggling to get pad sensitivity/threshold levels low enough to allow a more delicate touch. If one sets the threshold levels for all pads/cymbals at zero and the sensitivity levels at zero, theoretically to give each pad the widest dynamic range one has to increase the sensitivity levels to enable the top 127 velocity to be reached with the hardest strike. Having said this the main issue for us is that the threshold level on its own is not providing us with a lower enough sensitivity at delicate strikes where it is still possible to play delicately without triggering any sounds. Surely there are many other pros out there who have come across this anomaly?. It is disappointing for us because my drummer when he is playing softly on the VH13 or the 125 snare is not playing overly delicately but certainly the odd trigger isnt happening! In brief I am putting the question out here:

    Is there ant way to increase the range of response of the pads in the lower dynamics (its like one would wish there was a minus value available to the threshold setting!) I hope this makes sense to somebody here. Please forgive my seemingly long winded description! This is my first post on this site! We are preparing for a heavy concert schedule in the summer and this particular issue is becoming rather niggling!

  • #2
    If I understand you correctly, you're having trouble consistently triggering delicate strikes while keeping them delicate. You want the drums to respond well to "delicate touch" and still be able to hit the 127 velocity level when you need to. The threshold and sensitivity settings have some independent functions. Threshold tells the module to trigger a sound when it receives a signal from a pad stronger than "x" value. Using a threshold value higher than 0 is generally done to help avoid double triggering. Sensitivity settings are used to boost the signal the module is getting from the pad. Raising the sensitivity makes the module more responsive to all strikes both delicate and hard. If sensitivity is to low, hard strikes won't reach 127, too high and delicate strikes are too strong. First, I'd suggest turning off your cross talk cancel settings temporarily. (You might want to write them down first) Next, make sure each pad is set to the appropriate type. Then set the threshold very low to allow the module to trigger sounds on the softest hits. Then set the sensitivity to 1 and incrementally raise the level until the softest notes are consistently triggering. Try out different velocity curves to find one that best suites your playing style. Once each pad is dialed in, you will have to deal with cross talk by adding cross talk cancel values or possibly better isolating problem pads. There might be TD-30 specific tricks that others can provide but this is how I would approach the problem.
    Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by bwilburn79 View Post
      If I understand you correctly, you're having trouble consistently triggering delicate strikes while keeping them delicate....ide but this is how I would approach the problem.
      Thank you very much for such a prompt response! I gather from what you are saying it is the cross talk cancel parameter that is masking the opportunity to create more range in the low velocity area. I understand both the threshold and sensitivity paremetres as you describe them but thought there must be something else within the archetecture that was preventing us from dialing in more subtlety in the lower velocity range. Thanks agsin - will check it out this afternoon!

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      • #4
        First things first, make sure all your heads are very tight. That will eliminate a lot of the hot spotting issues that can ruin low velocity playing. Adjusting the sensitivity is designed only control your loudest hits, not your quietest hits. If your drummer is peaking the meter when the sensitivity is set at 0, you either need to tighten your heads to avoid hotspotting which will give you false readings, or he needs to change to lighter sticks. Tell him to put the 2b's down and pick up some 5a's.

        After that you may want to check your curves setting. Using a scooped setting (EXP1 or EXP2) will allow your drummer to play those delicate notes just a touch harder while still sounding delicate. This should offer more consistent triggering of the low dynamic hits and still give you the hard hits peaking at 127.

        I think my work is done here.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Tommy_D View Post
          First things first, make sure all your heads are very tight. That will eliminate a lot of the hot spotting issues that can ruin low velocity playing. Adjusting the sensitivity is designed only control your loudest hits, not your quietest hits. If your drummer is peaking the meter when the sensitivity is set at 0, you either need to tighten your heads to avoid hotspotting which will give you false readings, or he needs to change to lighter sticks. Tell him to put the 2b's down and pick up some 5a's.

          After that you may want to check your curves setting. Using a scooped setting (EXP1 or EXP2) will allow your drummer to play those delicate notes just a touch harder while still sounding delicate. This should offer more consistent triggering of the low dynamic hits and still give you the hard hits peaking at 127.
          I
          Hi Tommy D, thanks for the reply. My drummer is certainly not able to make the levels peak with sensitivity set at zero. I think I may not have explained the myself correctly. The problem is we cant play the kit well in the bottom dynamic range. Even with the threshold level set at zero it doesn't yield a greater lower enough range for delicate play. Increasing the sensitivity as you quite rightly point out brings the high velocities back into play but sacrifices the low ones. Its the low ones that we are looking for and the fact is that the current zero setting for threshold doesn't reach low enough hence some delicate hits do not trigger. Drum skins are all tight but we have the same problem with the cymbals (no skins here!) Its question of dynamic range specifically the level one has to strike any pad for velocity number one to trigger that is proving too limiting. We want to be able to trigger velocity "1" with a more delicate level of strike. Hope this makes sense!

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          • #6
            Okay, so it sounds like you need to look at my TD-30 setup guide again and adjust your trigger settings accordingly. Set the sensitivity to your hardest hits, your threshold you your softest hits, then adjust the curve to your playing style. It sounds like you need to up your sensitivity, lower your threshold, and go with a curve setting that enhances playability in the lower dynamic range. Take a look at the set up guide again and follow it to a "T". It should get you what you are looking for.
            I think my work is done here.

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            • #7
              If delicate strikes only disappear when other pads are being played simultaneously, then Crosstalk Cancel settings are very relevant.

              If delicate strikes are not attainable when one pad is being played on its own, then it has nothing to do with Crosstalk Cancel settings.

              Bruce

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              • #8
                Originally posted by BarT View Post
                If delicate strikes only disappear when other pads are being played simultaneously, then Crosstalk Cancel settings are very relevant.

                If delicate strikes are not attainable when one pad is being played on its own, then it has nothing to do with Crosstalk Cancel settings.

                Bruce
                It is the second scenario here: with all respect to Tommy D i dont think people are grasping what i am after! :...... For example: if working just on the VH-13 hi hat I set the threshold and sensitivity at zero I am still able to hit the hi hat without triggering a sound. Basically my playing style at this end of the dynamic spectrum falls below the minimum possible response from the pad/module. I am trying to get it to respond to these gentle hits! I know I am not hitting the pads at an unreasonable low level that the kit should respond to and there must be something preventing this from happening. With all respect to Tommy D I totally understand how the trigger page works: I am simply refering to the basic fact that it appears the zero threshold level does not yield a low enough touch to trigger sounds. Also I have tried playing around with the curves with no improvement. There must be something amiss here. I am in conversation with Roland about this but it is slow progress! need to speak with one of their demo reps like Craig Blundell. I would be surprised if I have discovered the limit of the TD30K or the touch triggering itself on the pads/symbols is limited to this current level at the '"zero" end of the threshold. What I am after is effectively to lower the theshold value even more to allow a greater delicate touch that at the moment is simply not good enough.

                Will cancelling (or zeroing) all of the crosstalk settings increase the threshold range at all? I havnt tried this but logically this should make a difference because it is effectively raising the threshold level at which a pad triggers based on vibration. Everything is picked up by the sensor on the pad so am i right in thinking that the crosstalk setting would indeed be restricting the lower range of dynamics?
                Last edited by chini; 03-22-14, 01:44 PM.

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                • #9
                  My guess is that you have indeed hit the lowest threshold (ie too soft for the pad to detect you). I can tap my drums lightly without it detecting me too. Zero the cross talk settings just in case, and watch the module to see what velocity it thinks you're playing, if it shows nothing then you're playing to soft for it to detect you. Consider changing the head tension as this also can effect head response.


                  Roland TD-30KV, Pearl Demon Drive Double Pedal, Pearl H1000 hit hat stand, Shure SE530 IEMs, AKG K171 MKII Headphones, Mackie DLM PA, Yamaha MG102C mixer, Roland Studio Capture

                  Natal Walnut kit (US Fusion X), Bosphorus Antique 16" Crash & 22" Ride, Bosphorus Gold Series 14" hats.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by campster View Post
                    My guess is that you have indeed hit the lowest threshold (ie too soft for the pad to detect you). I can tap my drums lightly without it detecting me too. Zero the cross talk settings just in case, and watch the module to see what velocity it thinks you're playing, if it shows nothing then you're playing to soft for it to detect you. Consider changing the head tension as this also can effect head response.
                    I will certainly try this tomorrow! but I suspect we have discovered the kits limit here! THANKS FOR EVERYONES INPUT !

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by chini View Post
                      It is the second scenario here: with all respect to Tommy D i dont think people are grasping what i am after! :...... For example: if working just on the VH-13 hi hat I set the threshold and sensitivity at zero I am still able to hit the hi hat without triggering a sound. Basically my playing style at this end of the dynamic spectrum falls below the minimum possible response from the pad/module. I am trying to get it to respond to these gentle hits! I know I am not hitting the pads at an unreasonable low level that the kit should respond to and there must be something preventing this from happening. With all respect to Tommy D I totally understand how the trigger page works: I am simply refering to the basic fact that it appears the zero threshold level does not yield a low enough touch to trigger sounds. Also I have tried playing around with the curves with no improvement. There must be something amiss here. I am in conversation with Roland about this but it is slow progress! need to speak with one of their demo reps like Craig Blundell. I would be surprised if I have discovered the limit of the TD30K or the touch triggering itself on the pads/symbols is limited to this current level at the '"zero" end of the threshold. What I am after is effectively to lower the theshold value even more to allow a greater delicate touch that at the moment is simply not good enough.

                      Will cancelling (or zeroing) all of the crosstalk settings increase the threshold range at all? I havnt tried this but logically this should make a difference because it is effectively raising the threshold level at which a pad triggers based on vibration. Everything is picked up by the sensor on the pad so am i right in thinking that the crosstalk setting would indeed be restricting the lower range of dynamics?
                      Chini, I know exactly what you are trying to achieve. You have described it well enough. The problem is that you are not listening to what I am saying. You need to turn UP your sensitivity. You have said 3 or 4 times now that you have your sensitivity and threshold at zero. This is your problem. Your sensitivity is set so low that the pad is not reading your hits. Turn the sensitivity UP until your hardest hits peak the meter. Then adjust your threshold so your lightest hits trigger accurately., Then adjust your curve settings to work with your playing style.

                      This is not a cross talk problem. Keep those settings as stock until you run in to an actual problem with cross talk.

                      P.S. My pads can be triggered by scratching my nails across them.
                      Last edited by Tommy_D; 03-22-14, 07:50 PM.
                      I think my work is done here.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        So essentially you would like to play the pads with your hands, or 'finger-sensitivity'?


                        "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                        http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tommy_D View Post

                          Chini, I know exactly what you are trying to achieve. You have described it well enough. The problem is that you are not listening to what I am saying. You need to turn UP your sensitivity. You have said 3 or 4 times now that you have your sensitivity and threshold at zero. This is your problem. Your sensitivity is set so low that the pad is not reading your hits. Turn the sensitivity UP until your hardest hits peak the meter. Then adjust your threshold so your lightest hits trigger accurately., Then adjust your curve settings to work with your playing style.

                          This is not a cross talk problem. Keep those settings as stock until you run in to an actual problem with cross talk.

                          P.S. My pads can be triggered by scratching my nails across them.
                          Tommy D, I have followed your instruction. for example the snare is set at sense: 4, threshold: 0 and curve: spline (found this curve the only one that can bring back those lower velocities i.e. 1-4 without sacrificing the hardest hits reaching 127. However we are still dissatisified with the results. No! we are not trying to set the pads to play with the fingers! However I can imagine how a theoretically if it were possible to make the threshold level even lower this would be possible! Having done all this I can only assume the Xtalk values could yield a little more play?

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                          • #14
                            So you have set up the pads and you can get all velocity levels from 5-127? You are trying to get 1-4? Thats all that's missing in the dynamic range?
                            I think my work is done here.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Tommy_D View Post
                              So you have set up the pads and you can get all velocity levels from 5-127? You are trying to get 1-4? Thats all that's missing in the dynamic range?
                              sound = 159 Stainless SR, threshold = 0, sensitivity 4, curve = spline, Have actually been able to reach velocity 2. However its not a question of what the level meter reads its how it feels to play and for us the level at which one has to hit to reach the minimum velocity is simply not soft enough. The snare drum is livable if not ideal but the VH-13 in this respect is definitely not cutting it! Or perhaps you have some further suggestions?

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