adding more cymbals and pads to a td-10exp

[drumlogic]

I am a new v-session owner and am very satisfied with the sounds and capabilities of the td-10exp, however, i am already looking to add more pads and cymbals. The set is advertised as having 12 dual input ports for triggers, can i split the the tom inputs using a stereo to mono adapter and connect a pd-100 to one side and another cymbals/pas to the other. Im not sure if the pd-100 requires a stereo connection using both channels for positional sensing. I also assume i can do this to my 1 remaining aux port(the other one being occupied by the cy-15r ride. My old acoustic kit had around 15 cymbals and I'm looking to build a monster kit, how do i get full use of all the input triggers to the td-10exp??

[drumlogic]

Thanx for the info, but I have already read alot of posts concerning splitting inputs and it seems as if no one really knows whats going on. I ve rread alot of responses that contradict others. Feefer could you please explain how you are using all 24 assignable inputs, since I am electronically inclined PLEASE be as technical as possible.

[Drummersdad]

Originally posted by drumlogic:
PLEASE be as technical as possible.

Good point Drumlogic. Nice to have someone with Logic in their name. I have a TD-10 and I've read every post from the past two years containing Holy, Grail, Shack, etc. and tried several combinations. No luck. You are right! There is not one post that says (simply) how to do it....

For example, I want to add a single piezo trigger as a China (say something as minimal as a Pintech TC mono cymbal) and all my inputs are already used. I have a homemade mono piezo trigger going into Aux 2 as a cowbell currently (to the tip and shield). If someone would just say something like - "Unplug Aux2 and make a splitter where the ring and shield go to the Pintech TC China Cymbal and the ring and tip go to the cowbell trigger". (BTW, that does not work). But even if it is much more complex, give us a diagram or schematic or SOMETHING... Thanks. Howard

[drumlogic]

drummersdad, i haven't tried it yet but i think the correct way to wire it would be: shield and ring to one piezo and shield and tip to the other. I believe the shield is the common ground, but don't qoute me on that. WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE SET THE RECORD STRAIGHT ON HOW TO CORRECTLY SPLIT THE TD-10EXP INPUTS!

[Arriguy]

For how to info step by step...go here http://www.vdrums.com/discussion/For...ML/000387.html
and here http://www.vdrums.com/discussion/For...ML/000656.html

[Drummersdad]

Originally posted by Arriguy:
For how to info step by step...go here

As I said - I read all the posts in that thread. I don't want velocity layered sounds. I want two full range piezo inputs for the price of one - such as a Cowbell and China. Doable?

[JoeKool]

I am with you guys on this. I am buying a set tomorrow, and I will be doing some testing myself. I have read a lot of the posts as well, and for some reason, it just is not clicking with me. Hopefully, once I get one of these things in my hands, it will all start to make sense.

If I get anywhere, I will post it, and try to be a little more technical. Feefer is the expert here, and he has done quite a bit of research. If anything, he has paved the way.

JoeKool

[drumlogic]

OK, I did some experimenting today and here is what i found. I went to radio shack and bought a 1/4inch stereo male to (2) 1/4inch mono female adapter. This will seperate the left and right stereo channels. I dont know if this is the godly "shack adapter" that everyone is talking about because no one ever technically explained what exactly that is. Anyway, i tried splitting the kick, tom, crash, and aux inputs with no luck. I connected a pd-100 tom to each mono input. I believe that a pd-100 uses a single piezo trigger. I used these because i would like to trigger 4 single piezo cymbals(visulites) off of my two aux inputs(2 per input). I have not toyed around with trigger settings, scantime, x-talk etc, as i am new at this and dont want to mess anything up. This leads me to conclude that the tom/kick/crash/aux inputs are all piezo/fsr dual input triggers and cannot be used to trigger two single and seperate piezo triggers. I really hope I'm wrong about this because for $5,000 this thing should wash my car, clean my room, and DEFINITELY trigger two single piezos per input. Will one of the resident experts please help us here!!!!!!!!!!!

[Traps]

Originally posted by feefer:


Putting this info. together in a sequential fashion so any V-Drum newbie could understand would require starting with the basics of e-drum triggering (piezo vs FSR), progressing to what TD module settings REALLY do (e.g. the names of trigger settings are really misleading, I think), and then explaining what functions these settings provide when you're 'Shack Adapting'.

It's a rather large topic, requiring alot of time to put into a document. Even then, there's no guarantee people will have the interest or desire or capability to RTFD.

Personally, I'd pay $ to demonstrate my desire to gain that knowledge. It would be akin to having another reference manual, but written by someone who actually uses the product and is selflessly trying to empower the rest of us.



[This message has been edited by Traps (edited July 13, 2001).]

[drumlogic]

chris,
I have read alot of posts concerning shacking and holy grail. I also have an in-depth understanding of transmission lines/piezo's and signals processing in general. I am just not completely familiar with the td-10 and do not want to do any experimentation that could result in damage to my module. If you could sum up shacking and holy grailing in one post I think alot of "NEWBIES" and other v-drummers would find this most helpful. Furthermore, you could direct people with questions(and there seems to be a whole ****load of us who don't understand this yet, not just newbies) to a specific post with all this information included. After all isnt that the point of this discussion forum, to advance the knowledge and performance of all v-drummers who visit this, not just the ilete. So please, instead of directing me and all the other v-drummers to inconsistent and misinformative posts, once and for all put your wealth of knowledge into one post that is current, technical and accurate. This way we dont have to deal with misinformation and you could make life alot easier for alot of v-drummers. And just think, every couples weeks or so, when another v-drummers asks the same question we did you can respond with a hyperlink to a post with all the infromation he/she will ever need about shacking and grailing inputs.

Thank You,
-Drumlogic

PS Make it as long as you want I promise I will definitely read the whole thing.

[Ken Taylor]

In some ways the FSR description is misleading when refering to the dual inputs.
One is truly Piezo using tip and lower sleeve the other is more like a membrane 'switch'.(This is ring and lower sleeve ) When the outer rim of a PD9 is hit it momemtarily closes this switch. At this point software in the TD10 detects this and if the switch is closed for just a few milliseconds it is assumed to be a Rim 'strike', volume on the rim strike (how loud it should sound) is taken from the piezo which would normally be supplying center sounds. If the switch is closed for longer than a few milliseconds (As in when you squeeze the rim) the TD10 detects this as a "choke" and duly sends a midi choke to damp the sound. So when you strike the pad center only the main sound is heard and as no rim switch is set, then strike volume and position are read much as in the PD120 /100 pads.
Anyone wishing to use the FSR input with a Piezo needs to buy a simple Sound switch kit these are available in the UK so I'm sure that Radio shack or the like will supply them. These are normally used to switch on a device from a handclap or tap and employ a Piezo. They can be set to turn on this switch for just a millisecond or so using the correct value of resistor. now you have made the 'virtual' membrane switch close momentarily from a strike you must employ another piezo wired in parallel with the tip and sleeve but attached to the same drum you have used for the 'FSR' input otherwise the TD10 will not know how loud to be.
Those of you who have access to electronic project books should also be able to find this sort of thing (usually a couple of OP amps) and make it for themselves.

Ken.

[drumlogic]

Chris,
Thanks for the links, they were quite helpful. I made the shack adapter and y stereo splitter necessary for "grailing" inputs. I haven't had much time to play with it yet but I understand the concept now. However, do you fully understand electrically whats taken place when you "backfeed" and decive the fsr trigger sensor. Does this have an effect on it's Mean Time Before Failure(MTBF). Have you noticed any irrational behavior from your td-10 after doing so? Is this backfed voltage also seen across the piezo, if so, wouldn't that adversely affect the longevity of the piezo? I am eager to start toying with this thing, but I am always weary about using device's (especially highly sensitive triggers) outside of their manufacturers specifications.

Very interesting so far.

-Drumlogic

[Ken Taylor]

Feefer,
The solution I have proposed detects all hits from soft to hard it is not for layering and allows another drum to be assigned (attached) to a rim input.
As for the bias voltage this is dropped across a 6.8K resistor so as long as a resistor of this value is used in your projects no damage would be done to the unit.

Ken.

[drumlogic]

chris,
I was wondering if you know of many people who have accomplished this using a pd-100 or pd-120. Forgive me if it was stated somewhere in another post but i've been spending alot of time tinkering with the trigger settings. Do you have any tips for people grailing the inputs of a td-10 with pd-100's or pd-120's. I have them both triggering the head sound and cannot get either one to trigger the rim sound(I have only tried tom inputs so far). I would appreciate any trigger setting or tips you have to help get me started. Thank You.

-Drumlogic

[drumlogic]

Chris,

Excellent Information!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just before I read your post I had taken a step back from trying to grail two seperate pd-100's and tried to attain shacking. I wasnt having much luck until I went back to this message board and saw your reccomendation for the P7A trigger setting and .8 scantime. This seems to work really well. I havent got to tweak it yet but i am begining to see the potential here. Very Kool. I was able to trigger both head and rim sounds from a single pd-100 dependent on my strike velocity. Grailing is not far away. Any more tips? I love this stuff.

-drumlogic

PS Thank you very much for your help so far. If I were doing this myself from scrath I would have given up already based on the frustraton associated with tweaking a module for hours at a time. I have pretty much been hibernating with this module for the past couple days. My girlfriend is ready to file a missing persons report.