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Turn 'em off!

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  • Turn 'em off!

    A little tip for those recording the Vdrums...

    I've been asked this many times before and I say it's time someone here cleared it up.

    The effects on the modules are not good. Okay, maybe they are somewhat, but there are better ones out there. Because they are real, unlike the modules, they are not MIDI based.

    If you are doing some serious recording and have some effects processors, use em! Make sure you turn off all effects before applying any others.

    But if you don't have anything else, using the effects in board your module will do just fine. Especially for live use. That's what I use mine for.
    The best damn kid in the record industry. Maybe.

  • #2
    Yeah, great. Let's all buy a fully equiped car.
    And turn the air-co, radio and cooler off.

    There are better ones out there
    Robert

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Harlock
      the only thing unprofessionnal about v drums modules.
      Onboard Tinkertoy effects!
      If Roland included "decent" effects in the TD-10, i.e., decent enough for you guys to admit they were good quality, my guess is less than 1/2 of 1% of the current TD-10 owners could afford it.

      I hear the "cheap effects" argument on almost every piece of equipment that includes effects. I got a hard disk recorder which includes effects. Their board is the same - some supply their own "better" outboard effects. And my HD recorder effects ARE better than the TD-10's. (I've run the TD-10 through it a few times just for the better effects ) To me, it isn't worth the inconvenience when playing live. I tend to tweak each pad and each kit. Using outboard equipment would be a hassle for me. It would end up a big compromise to avoid all the tweaks. And I am not about to trust my sound to the soundman to do it.

      For what recording my wife and I have dabbled in, we use the TD-10's effects on a limited basis, supplement with the hard disk and use a Lexicon on voice or guitar too, depending on our needs. So I agree they aren't the greatest, but they are at least tolerable, particularly in a live environment. Without them, I think the T-10 would lose its appeal for quite a few people.
      Kit Pic 1 Kit Pic 2 Kit Pic 3... And FOR SALE I have: 3 PD-9's, MDS-10 purple rack w/cables/pad and cym mounts. See classified posts for details or PM me.

      Comment


      • #4
        Exactly: the TD-10 effects are good enough for the TD-10. Period.

        Otherwise (as I always say) it would be strange to choose and buy a drum module, which has it all and then advice not to use a part of it !!

        And what's the altenative? Incorporating a $ 4000 effect unit would raise the price from a TD-10 again. So Roland did a good job. If you don't like it: buy a Yamaha
        Robert

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by feefer


          Hi Boingo and all,

          I don't think so. All of the XV modules feature reverb effects derived from the SRV-3030 chip, and the improvement in sound quality is significant. Sure, there's some who would still insist on using outboard effects (especially when recording), but these definitely suffice, and the effect on final product's price is insignificant.

          Chris
          I originally responded with a post that got very lengthy. My internet line went out on me and I lost it. I didn't feel like recreating it, but I touched on this then. Basically I concluded, "But they aren't known for doing things out of the kindness of their heart. They typically are kind to their bottom line."

          There is no disagreement that they can do much better than what they did. Roland is a business first and foremost. Look at anything they put out and you will see they only do what is necessary to get the sale and be a leader in the market (or at least meet their target). If you want more, you can pay for it with an upgrade, get the next model in the hierarchy or buy the new and improved version when it comes out (assuming they feel there is enough market for a better version or that competition warrants it). And not all decisions are based strictly on the cost of the product. I believe they plan a product evolution so they can keep wetting your appetite and draining your wallet. Thus intentionally putting out less than possible.

          I'm going to assume Roland chose the cheap effects because they wanted to squeeze every penny out of the TD-10. I also believe, to them, no penny is insignificant.

          Consider: we own them, even though we are complaining about it. Look at the TD-12 wish list (who started that thread anyway?) which seems to have the assumption we are looking towards our next purchase. Look at how everyone drools when something like the expansion card and V-cymbals come out. They can't wait to drop a wad of cash on them. I think they (Roland) are shrewd and successful bussinessmen.

          I am also somewhat insulted by what they think of us to give us crumbs instead of cake and slightly embarassed that we just don't know how to say no and proove their philosophy wrong. The buying public's habits are a part of why this happens. If we rejected their offering, prices would drop and they would learn from what they did wrong.

          When some real competition arrives, I'm sure you will find whatever it takes for them to continue the lead role and a price point that will hurt but not so bad that we can't bear the pain.

          Such is life.
          Kit Pic 1 Kit Pic 2 Kit Pic 3... And FOR SALE I have: 3 PD-9's, MDS-10 purple rack w/cables/pad and cym mounts. See classified posts for details or PM me.

          Comment


          • #6
            Which effects are the majority of users here running? I don't think the 3d Flying Delays have a place in every musical style. I don't think the gates are very modern sounding.. But classic Reverb never goes out of style. I use the Ambience sends for the whole kit, and then use some reverb on the kick and some more on the snare.. It sounds FINE.. I'm not overdoing the effects so that's all you hear, I want the kit to come through with a little background ambience and then just a fatter kick and snare sound.

            I track my parts to midi instead of audio and then go back and adjust notes if necessary, rercord parts with different approaches, etc. Then when I'm finished, I adjust the levels on the TD-10, and dump a stereo signal into my workstation.. I *could* record all 8 outputs from one of my TD-10's and then adjust the levels within Sonar 2 XL or Cubase SX or whatever I choose to use for the project at hand.. But I've found that if I do all my mixing within the TD-10, it makes for a smaller project size (great for sending to my pseudo-bandmates in Mass, Maine and Germany), less stuff on screen to keep track of, and I can completely adjust things til the very end, which if you dump the drums to your computer or recorder, you can only do by adjusting on the module and then redumping, etc..

            How are the internal processors MIDI-based effects, Algee? MIDI is only controller data and note data and other types of data, not audio of any sort. The only midi-based effects that exist are things like MIDI delays, MIDI arpeggiators (they watch incoming note data and spread out a chord into separate notes and cycle through it), etc.. They work by adjusting the timing of the note data.. The internal fx processors only differ from outboard gear in that they aren't taking an analog input, converting to digital, processing and then converting back to analog.. Aside from the ADC/DAC conversion steps, they're just like any other fx proc..

            I did a session 2 weeks ago at the same studio where N*Sync and the Backstreet Boys record all their albums, using basically the stock V-Pro setup, for portability.. The person who was in charge of the project (the guitar player, an intern at the studio), said he preferred the sound of acoustic drums and next time would rather use his own Yamaha acoustic kit if I didn't want to bring mine in, because they sound better (he has one of the entry level kits by Yamaha).. I had to explain to him several times during the 12hr session that OF COURSE my drums don't sound very good, I had my compressors, ambience and effects all bypassed.. That normally I play with them on and they sound like really nice drums to me, but this way they sound pretty dull and thin and lifeless.. I haven't heard back yet on the exact details of how the mixing has gone, but last week he said he was very happy with how the whole project was coming along and it sounded great..

            So did I contradict myself just now? No, but some of you may run into this at some point.. The drums when set to completely dry, sound pretty dull and boring (just like a guitar with no effects, that you're playing Metallica or something on).. Convincing people that they WILL sound good later is a little annoying.. It's good to get your internal fx sounding as good as you can, so you can play the kit with them all turned on and go 'okay, THIS is what you need to make me sound like again with your outboard gear, or on the computer', and then turn them off for separation on the recording..

            Just a little advice for whatever it's worth..
            Expanded TD-10, TD-7, PTX-8, DrumKAT 3.8, 8xPD7, 5xPD9, 4xKD7, FD7, 3xPD100, 4xPD120, 4xHart Acupad TE3, 2xECymbalX, Pintech Kick, 10xLP Spike, 2xSapphire, 3xPTT8, 1xPSD8, PBD8 Kick, 2xSynare 3, 2xAcrylic Cymbals, Gibraltar/Roland racks

            Comment


            • #7
              Alright. I phrased that wrong. I don't know about much on the subject of MIDI effects. But they are different from the normal effect processors in the respect that they don't really process the same way, right?
              The best damn kid in the record industry. Maybe.

              Comment


              • #8
                Mmm, MIDI fx processors or the internal Roland units? The Roland units are only different (aside from the converters) in that they can tempo-match the sequencer's bpm, on the delays.. To do that with outboard FX, you'd need a midi input on the processor, to sync to the sequencer's bpm..

                But otherwise, they're just like any other effects processor. Which I guess is why you can't run individual ambience to each of the 8 outputs, for example, because that would require 4 stereo ambience processors or 8 mono processors, and the TD-10 only contains 1 stereo processor, which can be duplicated to multiple output pairs (I believe, I don't remember for sure)..

                A true MIDI effects processor just goes in the midi line between 2 devices.. For example a midi delay unit goes between an octapad and a td-x controller and generates say 3 additional notes on the same note # as the original 'hit', but makes them gradually quieter.. This way you get the ECHO ECHo ECho Echo... effect on your hit, without having a true effects processor.. Yes, limited, but cheap to buy or build
                Expanded TD-10, TD-7, PTX-8, DrumKAT 3.8, 8xPD7, 5xPD9, 4xKD7, FD7, 3xPD100, 4xPD120, 4xHart Acupad TE3, 2xECymbalX, Pintech Kick, 10xLP Spike, 2xSapphire, 3xPTT8, 1xPSD8, PBD8 Kick, 2xSynare 3, 2xAcrylic Cymbals, Gibraltar/Roland racks

                Comment


                • #9
                  Personally, I think someone needs to make a module, or at least a trigger to midi converter with 30 to 40 dual piezo & piezo/fsr inputs.. And it needs to sell for around $300.. I think you'd find more people building monster kits if it didn't cost so much for the module.. trigger to midi shouldn't cost that much to build, they've already invented the technology and there's not all that much to it.. So why not just add more to an existing module, then include onboard user uploaded sample playback? I guess with that many inputs, people would want compressors on every channel, 4 fx processors, etc. so then maybe just a large trigger to midi would be cool.. but then you don't get all the outputs you wanted for it

                  New module needs firewire and ADAT outputs, I think.. then you don't have to deal with the direct boxes and a snake, or eating up 16 inputs on a mixer, or buying 16 ADC converters. In a studio this would be nice.. Live I don't think firewire or thin fiber optic cables would hold up..

                  I just caught your idea of a stereo fx proc for every input.. nice..
                  Expanded TD-10, TD-7, PTX-8, DrumKAT 3.8, 8xPD7, 5xPD9, 4xKD7, FD7, 3xPD100, 4xPD120, 4xHart Acupad TE3, 2xECymbalX, Pintech Kick, 10xLP Spike, 2xSapphire, 3xPTT8, 1xPSD8, PBD8 Kick, 2xSynare 3, 2xAcrylic Cymbals, Gibraltar/Roland racks

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Damn, you have a lot of nice gear listed there..

                    I used a pair of Avalon direct boxes for my kick and snare outs in a studio a few weeks ago.. I was hypnotized by the blue LED that came on and faded out slowly each time I hit one or the other..

                    I know Lexicon and TC make some killer reverbs, but personally I think only a couple seconds of reverb time is needed for the drums, and the internal ones do that just fine.. When you mix the drums in with other tracks, it sits well, doesn't draw attention to itself, and plays well with others in the sandbox.. What more could you want?

                    Sure, you can't reproduce the Sistine Chapel in 32 bit/192kHz, but why simulate something like that anyway? Just go there and rent the place out!
                    Expanded TD-10, TD-7, PTX-8, DrumKAT 3.8, 8xPD7, 5xPD9, 4xKD7, FD7, 3xPD100, 4xPD120, 4xHart Acupad TE3, 2xECymbalX, Pintech Kick, 10xLP Spike, 2xSapphire, 3xPTT8, 1xPSD8, PBD8 Kick, 2xSynare 3, 2xAcrylic Cymbals, Gibraltar/Roland racks

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      I think the effects on the TD10 are best used when playing with headphones to give a rough approximation of what real effects may sound like (aiyee!). I tried using them during recording and found the sound quite umanageable when mixing with other effects in the final mixdown. OK, maybe there is a credible solution to this situation but I did spend a few hours on this challenge and nothing seemed to work.

                      The rule of thumb in making recordings is to get a clean signal and apply effects after the fact (at least this is what I have found). The important part of an initial recording is getting that clean signal and solid performance. Effects should always come later IMHO. I am certainly no expert in this but found the effects apres' performance a cleaner and less cluttered approach.

                      I have had limited success in using the effects through my little PA but I rather the use of my outboard gear for simplicity's sake. I must admit that I have spent only a short time on this challenge so there may be a credible solution for my setup (so many factors when it comes to live sound through a PA).


                      Good luck!
                      Kelly Mercer
                      Halifax, Nova Scotia
                      Canada

                      My Youtube Channel!
                      http://www.youtube.com/user/VirtualMP3Studio

                      My "home studio" webcam!
                      http://virtualmp3studio.ww.com/

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                      • #12
                        Yeah, afterwards is better, I agree.. but I think my idea of recording just midi and mixing with just midi throughout works really well.. less system overhead and more control throughout the process.. I dunno though, i still think the regular room and hall reverbs sound just fine in a mix?
                        Expanded TD-10, TD-7, PTX-8, DrumKAT 3.8, 8xPD7, 5xPD9, 4xKD7, FD7, 3xPD100, 4xPD120, 4xHart Acupad TE3, 2xECymbalX, Pintech Kick, 10xLP Spike, 2xSapphire, 3xPTT8, 1xPSD8, PBD8 Kick, 2xSynare 3, 2xAcrylic Cymbals, Gibraltar/Roland racks

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