Fake Adat?

[Algee]

Hey guys. I've got a little bit of a question that needs tending to, if you don't mind. I'm recording with the Digidesign Digi 001. Besides that RCA ins, the I/O box only offers 8 ins. Now I know that the 001 box is compatible with optical interfaces like ADATs to give more simultaneous inputs. But I think that ADAT machines are a little pricey. That's when I spotted this: http://www.alesis.com/products/ai3/index.html.
Now if I'm correct, this thing with hook up optically with the Digi 001 sound card and offer me 8 more inputs?! I'm aware that the software will only handle up to 24 tracks, but now I can for example mic up all the drums permantly and use the 001 box for occasional switches of inputed devices like mics and guitars, right?

I'll be using a Mac G4 2-gig processor machine. Can it handle up to 16 simultaneous inputs and 10 outputs? I mean, that's a lot to ask of a computer! Can it handle it? I can't have the system studdering!! Someone tell me! Will this work? Thanks a lot.

[Shep2112]

Hi Algee,

I use a PC here with an Athlon XP 1600+ processor.. I can do damn near anything with it. You should be in the same boat with your setup.. I would guess if you have a fast, modern hard drive, it's 7200 rpm (otherwise it's the slower 5400, but I think Apple is good about putting higher performance components in).. You should be able to do 48-64 tracks without any problems on there..

The Alesis product looks good, but doesn't have mic preamps.. It will handle your line level devices (VDrums, etc) without a problem, but no mics will work on it without a preamp. There are a number of analog to digital converters out there that have ADAT/Lightpipe outs and ins on them. Check around. You won't need special drivers or extensions for it, since the computer isn't in control of the device (usually the case unless it has more features than just a-d/d-a conversion)

The amount of RAM you have will be the main factor in how many tracks you can handle. The hard drive should be fine and generally barely sees much activity with loads of tracks going (it buffers a lot and accesses every few seconds generally). The CPU power determines how many realtime effects you can run (like EQ, reverb, delay, etc). I would guess with 128 megs of ram and a 400MHz cpu, you could do 50 tracks with no problems (not many realtime effects, but some).. Then whatever your system contains above that is just more power to express yourself..

-Eric

P.S. you can also get 8 XLR mic preamps in a single rack space, with line outs for $249.. Check Electronic Musician magazine (or keyboard, or Recording, or most any other one) for ads.. This way if you need more mic preamps down the road, you can add them. Or for a bit more than the Line-level to ADAT box, you could get one with line and mic level ins out to ADAT. Not sure on price there.. For future reference, the ADAT 8 bus connection is used in a lot of devices now and doesn't have to have an ADAT recorder involved in any way.

[Algee]

Dude, thank you! you helped me out so much! I love it when someone takes just a little bit of their time to explain some things to me. I sure do appreciate it.

Anyway, I'll probably be plugging in my 8 mic cords from my drums. Just to keep things simple, I'll probably never change those out. As for the rest of the ins and outs, I've got the 001 hardware.

But preamps, eh? What exactly is this going to do, just boost the signal. Is that necessary? My signal won't be stretching further than about 20 feet. But what kind of optical interface would you suggest that combines I/O with preamps? I really don't have the cash to buy a 1-2 thousand dollar ADAT machine!! Here's the preamp I'd buy if I had to. http://www.smproaudio.com/pr8.htm.

So what you're saying is that for 8 more inputs, all with gains, I'd need: one eight-channel optical input device and an eight-channel pre-amp box. That's it? Yeah, that only adds up to $650! That's not far from a full-fledged ADAT machine!

Are there any other options? I really only want to add some more inputs to my 001 system. Maybe with time I could pull together some extra dough. But until then, I'd like another plan.

But seriously, I do appreciate your help. If you could assist me anymore, please let me know! Thanks a lot.

[Shep2112]

Well, I can't seem to find the ad for it. Maybe it was last month's Electronic Musician mag that had it. hmm.. Anyways, I checked that link and it looked familiar. Then I found the ad for it in EM.. That's prolly the one I would buy too.. Their ad says Estimated street price, $249... That's a great price for 8 mic preamps with phantom power (for powering condenser mics) selectable on each, 120db dynamic range, distortion <.05%.. Specs look good to me.. It's not a $2,000 tube-based preamp, but it will get the job done just fine.

The preamps are used to boost the weak signal of a microphone. You wouldn't want to use a microphone preamp on a line level signal, it would overload the input and distort like crazy. There are 2 standard levels that gear uses. +4 dBU and -10dBV (I think I got the symbols right there). Pro gear is +4, which is a stonger signal, and home gear is -10 usually.. My td-10's are set with the faders on 8 and the master volume at about the 2 o'clock position. The trims on my digital mixer are set at -10 (the lowest they can go (least amount of gain boost)). This gives me a strong signal without overloading when I do Carmine Appice's "Falling Rocks" impression (floor toms with hands and kicks with both feet).

The Digi001 has only 2 preamps in it though, right? Just the 2 on the front. The remaining 6 are line-ines, I believe. Another possible option is to pick up a mixer like mine. It's a Fostex VM-200.. I got it in October, 2000, for $499 new. Retail was $1,499.. Sam Ash had a few when I was there a couple months ago. You can probably find them around. They had a used one for $299 also. It has motorized faders, 2 fx processors, paragraphic EQ, adat outs for the 8 analog ins (8 adat ins are returns from your computer/recorder) and a bunch of other stuff.. 4 XLR mic ins, 8 line ins, all with gain controls (trim knobs).

You should be fine running 20 feet with your 8 outputs from the TD-10.. I picked up a brand new 15 foot, 8 channel 1/4" to 1/4" snake (bunch of cables in a larger casing to hold them together) for I think $17.. That was at U-Do-It Electronics, in Needham, MA. I don't know if they have anymore, but some place should have one of these for around that price. Normally it would be $40-50 at a music store. This lets you run 1 'cable' between your drums and the line input device. There are 8 cables at each end of it, each a different color. I haven't noticed any noise with mine and it's much neater than running 8 15 foot cables (which I don't own =)

The only time you'll need the mic preamps is for microphones and probably a guitar direct from the output jack. But any kind of effects pedal or amp line-out will have plenty of juice for you. Or, get a 'Direct Box' for $30 and up (depending on brand and quality) which will convert your instrument signal into something stronger (XLR or 1/4")..

Here's an example for you with a band:
8 outs from TD-10 into Line to ADAT unit
1 vocal mic into Digi001 XLR mic Input 1
1 guitar amp mic into Digi001 XLR mic Input 2
1 bass guitar from amp/pedal line out into Input 3
2 stereo from keyboards into Inputs 4 and 5

This leaves you with Inputs 6, 7 and 8 for plugging in other stuff when people come over, etc. Or, if you have 8 outs on the Digi001, you can do cool stuff like take output 7 (random #) and plug it into an external reverb unit, then run it back into Input 6 (random empty input #).. Then you can use external effects with your system. If you have low-noise gear, this is a cool way to record 'clean' tracks, and then add effects later, without relying on your computer's cpu or a limited number of plugins you may/may not have yet.

I have plenty more answers, if you have more questions..
-Eric

[MPCman]

When I worked at a pro audio shop, I remember a customer coming back with the Ai3, because its digital outs were at 20 bits. I am not sure if this was the case simply because it was an old model, or that the ad/da conversion is 24 bit but internally dithers to 20 bit.
So I suggest to check that out before you buy. (20 bit still works great I must say).

Yes buying preamps will make it more costly, but you'll need them for an Adat as well I think.

[Shep2112]

Hey MPCMan,

I've been wondering about the whole bit depth thing myself.. Supposedly something like 3 in 100,000 people can hear a difference between 16 and 24 bit. My Fostex VM-200 has 20 bit converters in it. It sounds fine to me. I'd like to wire s/pdif outs on my TD-10's (or a lightpipe out, but that requires a lot more components), but for now the sound doesn't have any flaws that I can hear.

Can *you* personally hear a difference between 16, 18, 20, and 24 bit? I mean, 16 bit gives you 65,536 levels of amplitude and 24 gives you 16,777,216.. So sure, there's a huge difference in numbers, but can you really perceive that there are "only" 65,536 different volume levels possible on a CD?

Just wondering, not trying to sound rude here..
-Eric

[MPCman]

Well... I never had a chance to hear one piece of music at different bit rates, but I am sure that the difference between 16 and 24 would be audible to anybody if you'd use a piece of music with lots of dynamical changes.

Anyway, when recording, 20 or 24 bit really offers advantages. Since more bits can handle more dynamics, you dont have to worry as much about a distorting kick or whatever, you can record the clean signal and compress afterwards when mixing.

[Shep2112]

That's a good point, but I guess I have been viewing dynamic range more as "this is 0dB at the top with all of them, there are just more steps on the ladder getting up there".. But I guess it's like extending the ladder then, not using smaller steps on it? Those meters never explain things right to you..

[Algee]

Hold up, bad idea. I just wanted to add this to the conversation here. If you record in 24 bit, edit in 24 bit, mix in 24 bit, and master in 24 bit, how do you know it's going to sound so sweet once you put it on cd. I mean, cd's only handle 16 bit, right? So what's the point in recording in such a high level, and work with such perfect sounding audio, only to find that the sound is going to degrade once burned. Eh?


Okay back to the topic. You guys have helped me out so much. Thanks!! But I wanted to clear up a couple of things. I have a Mackie VLZ-1402 sitting around. Could that be of any use? It has all the phantom power and trim availible on 6 channels. Could that be used for anything? And as far as the recording of drums; I was talking about acoustics. FOr any electronic drum parts, I was just planning on doing that in MIDI. Or wait, hold on! If I want to hook up the TD-10 to the 001 box, do I have to hook up the MIDI cable and the 4 stereo outputs as well?! WHAT!?! NO!! I thought I had this figured out! HELP!!

I have a Yamaha standard stage custom. From what I hear, it works great with almost any style of music. And I've played em for years. I love em. Just your basic drums. Now here's the kicker. I'm going to be using a shure drum mic package. http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/...base_id/60359.
Now I was originally just going to buy cables that have an XLR plug on one side and a 1/4" plug on the other end. I'd plug all of those into the digi, or into the secondary optical input device. (Am I making sense here?) As far as levels, I would assume they's be normal. But some people tell me that they will be screaming, and other people tell me that they will be too weak and I will need some pre-amps. I don't know what to believe. How bout this. Let me draw it up.

Drums >> Shure drums mics >> Alesis ADAT I/O >> digidesign soundcard

That should be it for the acoustic ins, right? But what about hooking up the TD-10 to the recording system. WHat about the cables for that. Just MIDI, or the analog 1/4" as well? There's a little more to this than I thought!

- Thanks guys. I'm almost there!

[MPCman]

Originally posted by Algee
Hold up, bad idea. I just wanted to add this to the conversation here. If you record in 24 bit, edit in 24 bit, mix in 24 bit, and master in 24 bit, how do you know it's going to sound so sweet once you put it on cd. I mean, cd's only handle 16 bit, right? So what's the point in recording in such a high level, and work with such perfect sounding audio, only to find that the sound is going to degrade once burned. Eh?

Reread what I said about compression. Recording at 24 bit allows you to do the compression afterwards while mixing instead of compressing while recording.

[Shep2112]

Duuuuuuuuuuuude..

hehe, sorry I don't talk like that, just felt it appropriate..

Here's the deal with the mic package (which looks like a sweet deal btw!):

You'll have everything with that 'cept a snare mic.. Get a Shure SM-57 for that, you can't go wrong.

The cables alone will not work for you. An Impedandance Adapter/Transformer *May* work for you.. But your best bet is real preamps.. Good thing you mentioned your mixer, that will do fine for you! If the Mackie has Direct Outs on those channels, use those and run them into the 8 in Analog to Adat thing. If no direct outs, you can use the effects/channel insert jack to get a line out from each channel. It's a Tip-Ring-Sleeve (TRS) connector with the tip being the sending signal. So a standard mono cable should do fine for 'extracting' the signal out of the jack for connection with the line in box. Your acoustic drums will have to be SLAMMED to get them to work without preamps.. and put the mics inside about 1/4"s from the head if you do it, to get the most gain..

For a permanent setup, plug the VDrums into the Digi001's line ins and then the Shure's into the other unit.

Yes, you can record midi, but it's just data, not audio. You eventually need to playback your ProTools file, with the the audio inputs enabled and armed, to record the sound the drums make into the computer, once you have tweaked the notes to be right on beat and adjusted your tones, etc.

True, it's best to use all 8 outs if you can, but you might want to look into a PatchBay if you want to mount the Digi001 into a rack and not go behind it.

Behringer has one that sells for $40 brand new, with unbalanced 1/4" connections. If you're not doing long cable runs and away from a neon light transformer, you should be all set with that. I'd recommend a patchbay because you'll have all those ins and outs between the Digi001 and the adat converter. Then there's the direct outs from the Mackie you'll have now too.. The only problem is, your Mackie has 6 mic preamps, but if you add another mic for the snare, you'll need 7. You can buy a 1 or 2 channel standalone preamp fairly cheaply though.. For now, use one of the front jacks on the Digi001 for the snare.

With a patchbay you could easily swap the td-10's signals with the drum mics.. or does your Mackie have switches on each channel for XLR/Line input? if so, you could use that to toggle between the two, but the trim/gain setting might need to change each time.. But that would totally free up the Digi001's inputs..

Bottom line is, there's a whole lot you can do, just depends on if you wanna record other people or just drums all the time?

If you don't know, a patchbay is what the old telephone operators used to reroute signals betweens ins and outs..

As far the 24 bit through the signal path up until the final CD stage goes, you get better sounding results on complex things like reverbs, etc.. When you start adding effects it really changes the signal.. the more little pieces that make up the sound, the more accurate the detail can be.. I still dunno if I would hear a difference, but like working in Photoshop or something, do all the images in 24 bit and then only export to a lower setting when you're done.. the colors are better that way..

[Shep2112]

MPCMan, yup I got what you said just fine. My original impression was smaller steps on the same size ladder, but then I said the ladder is longer.. The problem I guess came from the fact that a meter doesn't get any taller when you change between 16-24 bits.. so it just seems like the absolute top would be the same.. but it's not, it's higher up..

thanks

[Algee]

Alright, let's see if I got it down.

For the acoustic drums, I like your idea of using those 'line through' jacks. They're actually labeled "channel inserts." But when I tried them out, it actually just passed the signal through, allowing only the low cut and the trim to be applied. Though still, the signal was actually cut out. Nothing went anywhere else. The meters were dead, and the main outs weren't tapping into the signal either. Only the signal passed though from the channel inserts on the back. But I really wouldn't need the Mackie mixer for anything else, would I? Would it be smart to maybe sell that mixer and use that money to buy a stand-alone rackmount preamp box? I might be able to use the leftover money for some SM57's, which sorry I failed to mention, but I was going to buy a couple of those. (One for snare, one for the HH)

Now for the electronic drums, I will need a hook up like this:

(TD-10) MIDI out >> Digi 001 MIDI in
(TD-10) 4 stereo outs >> Digi 001 ins 1-8

So do I need to send any MIDI signals back to the TD-10? Like from the Digi 001 MIDI out >> TD-10 MIDI in? Something like that?

I currently have it organized for live mixing like this:

master out: snare
output 1: toms
output 2: cymbals
output 3: kick

Since I'm NOT actually going to be mixing the drums like that, but rather all the mixing will be done through the MIDI, do I really need that many analog outputs going in to the Digi 001? I would assume that just a master stereo ouput would work. Just as if I were doing a keyboard with MIDI, right? Then I would have 6 extra ins on the Digi-001.


Moving on. I don't think A patch bay will be necessary. The only rackmount equipment I'll have is a power conditioner, a power amp for my monitors (The Alesis monitor one MK2 speakers, which are sweet for their price!!), an ADAT unit, and *maybe* a preamp box. If I route the A-drums the pricey way, I wount need to unplug them at all. They'll be permanent. And if my plan for the E-drums holds true, then that would be permanent as well, unless I need to use the MIDI jacks for a keyboard or something.


YOU SAID: With a patchbay you could easily swap the td-10's signals with the drum mics.. or does your Mackie have switches on each channel for XLR/Line input? if so, you could use that to toggle between the two, but the trim/gain setting might need to change each time.. But that would totally free up the Digi001's inputs..


well, the Mackie has XLR and 1/4" jacks on all the mono channels, and it automatically switches dependng on what you have plugged in. (Too bad it won't accept both at the same time!) But wait, are you saying than I could just switch between them and adjust the gains, and never, no...no. I don't think that would do much for me. Or, maybe it would. I just don't see how.


When I record, the process with a full band will be something like this.
I will record drums and guitars at the same time. The guitarist's part will be the real thing, but only the drummer hears a click track. And we all know how hard it is to be creatice listening to a click. But it is so much easier for the guitarist's to hear drums than a click.
Once that's done, the drums will be removed from the tracks. Now the drummer can play for real, and with out a click. Hmmm... that interesting, now he's playing with the grid. And we all know how easy it is to edit tracks when they are lined up in time on a grid.
Later, all the vocals and guitar solos and so on can be added.

I don't see why this process wouldn't work flawlessly. I mean, there's a lot of ways of doing it, but the objective here is to make great music, something we sometimes forget.


So anyway, I suppose recording in 24 bit would be fine. I'll definitly do it that way. I've just about figured out just how I want to hook this up. Thanks for your help, bro. It helps me out a lot. Keep the ideas comin!

[Shep2112]

Okay, let's see if I can cover this all.. Have a million things going on all at once today!

The 1/4" and XLR ins on the Mackie, if you could toggle between, then you could plug both drumkits into it. Just press the jack select button (if it had it on each channel) and adjust the trim, and you'd be all set, no replugging. Do you know which jack takes priority when both are plugged in? If it's XLR for example, then just unplug the XLR when you want to record the TD-10 (problem here is that you can't even HEAR the TD-10 unless you do that. So the random jam on one kit takes a little more effort, unless you use the headphones out on the td-10)

Patchbay is more of a convenience thing as you grow than a necessity I suppose. You don't have enough gear to require it certainly.

The way the channel inserts work is it takes the signal before the eq section and runs it out of the jack, then it needs to come back IN on the Ring section of the connector (middle part on a stereo cable).. If you don't 'return' the signal there, it will not appear anywhere on the mixer or its outputs. You could use a splitter I suppose like so:
Insert cable OUT to splitter--> Splitter out 1 to ADAT converter / Splitter out 2 to Insert cable IN.
An insert cable is just a stereo to 2 mono splitter basically. Then you can use the mixer for setting up a monitor mix (use spare channels with same insert/split routine to make a headphone mix for all your inputs, hey there's an idea!)

Or you could sell the mixer and get more preamps. Or a larger mixer with more pre's onboard. Like a 1604VLZ or something.

As for the TD-10 outs, I prefer:
1 Kick
2 Snare
3/4 Toms
5/6 Cymbals
7 HiHat
8 Ride

Once you get your cymbal levels, you don't need to adjust them usually. Same for toms. Make them blend with each other and you're done. The ride and hi hat can be controller separately with this arrangement, and the kick and snare can be compressed or whatever in the computer. The more you get into this, the more you'll see it's not just about setting levels, there's EQ and all the dynamics and time-based effects too..

I would disable the onboard FX and maybe the ambience too (some users have said they can't get the ambience from one signal to stop coming out another output. I haven't recorded 8 tracks enough to check more into this. The tdw-1 is supposed to fix that as far as I know). Onboard compressors should be fine for a little limiting of the signal to keep it in range. EQ can be used onboard, should be fine. I *like* the onboard FX and ambience, but it allows more control later to add it as a realtime effect in ProTools, than to record the track 'wet' and be stuck with it.

Yeah you'll need MIDI back to the TD-10 so you can play back your TD-10 in sync with ProTools.

Your idea of rerecording the drums seems like a good approach. You could also record the whole band 'live' and record the drums as MIDI only on that pass. Then you have 16 inputs available PLUS as many Vdrums as you wanna hit, all at once! Then go back later and dump the drums into ProTools (by having ProTools play back the TD-10 while 8 ins are armed for recording)..

Still with me here? There's a lot you can do, definately.

[Algee]

Okay. Let's see if I got it.
Here's all the general input connections:

--A-drums--
8 mics (kick, snare, hh, t1, t2, t3, ovL, ovR) >> 8-channel preamp >> secondary input device (optical)

--E-drums--
TD-10 >> MIDI out >> MIDI in on Digi 001
TD-10 >> 1 stereo output >> input to channels 3-4 on Digi 001.
Digi 001 >> MIDI out >> MIDI in of TD-10

--Studio Vocal Mic--
AKG (HELP ME PICK ONE!!) >> Digi 001 input 1 (gainable)

--Electric Guitars, Acoustic Guitars, Bases, etc.--
These signals will be coming from a mic in front of the amp >> into the Mackie for juice >> then sent into the available channels
5-8.


Is there anything I'm leaving out here? Let me give you an idea of what needs to be purchased. All these prices are off of Musiciansfriend.com.

Shure Drum Mic Kit 400
2 Shure sm57's 160
5 Mic Stands for Drum Mics 120
8 XLR cables 100
8-channel preamp 250
ADAT optical interface 400
2 MIDI cables 30
AKG Studio Condenser Mic 500
Mic Stand for vocal mic 25
Pop Filter 25
Shockmount
Mac G4 Computer with Monitor 3500
Digi 001 Factory 1200
Reference Monitors 200
Power Amp for monitors 280
Power Conditioner 120
_________________________________
TOTAL_____________________$7310

If you ask me, that's not too shabby for a pretty nice recording studio. I'm diggin it. If you have any ideas on how I could possibly put this together better, please let me know! (oh, and don't forget. If you could find some better prices for me...let me know!)