TD 20 Direct Outputs

[xavior]

Hey all, I'm new to this forum and new to the TD 20's. I use Pro Tools 7.4 LE to record and I'm in the process of connecting the TD 20 to my digi003/Octane expander/Control 24.
The midi hook up is pretty straight forward....works great.
My question is with regards to the direct (audio) outputs. The manual is very vauge on this subject and only calls them "Audio Outputs".
After some research on the net and reading some threads here on V-drums my conclusion is that the outputs are "unbalanced" phono "Line Level" (-10dbv to +4dbv) outputs (please correct me if I'm wrong). If thats the case, then I need to hook up a DI box (actually 10...one for each "audio output") to convert the unbalanced signal to a balanced TRS signal ( i have a long run to my control room of approx 30feet through a snake) then on into the "line" input of either my C24 board or directly into the "line" input of the digi003 or Octane expander.
I just need to know if my thinking is correct here.
Are the outputs "unbalanced Line Level" ??
And if so .... wouldn't this create a problem when using the TD 20's "live" also ?
I mean your sending the "Sound Dude" a very hot and noisy " unbalanced line level" signal, when he's probably expecting an "instrument" level signal. So unless there is a substantial Pad applied at the board the signal would be overdriven and distorted.
Like I said ...I'm a new to the TD 20's and I just want to understand them better..............am I on the right track ??

Mahalo
Xavior

[lysis]

The outputs should be monophonic unamplified line level 1/4" jacks. You can jack those directly into something similar to one of these. I can't picture you needing a DI box for each output, and I don't think you need to convert the signal . . .

[xavior]

Line level outputs

Thanks lysis,
That is very similar to the M-Audio Octane that I have right now. Today I'm going to try and run the (TD 20) audio outputs directly into the "line in" inputs of the M-Audio Octane.
My only concern would be picking up noise on the "long cable run" of "unbalanced phono" about 30 feet to the Octane inputs.
I guess I won't know untill I try ..... I'll post my findings
Thanks
Xavior

[BlickemBlickem]

you should be fine if you have good cables my td20 cables are 20 footers though

[Hercules]

Hi xaviour,

You are on the right track - and you have a nice little setup there btw.

You can try using a balanced snake for your connections - you will at least get the shielding withinin the cable itself that way, though you won't get the end to end shielding from TD-20 to mixer.

You could consider using SPD/IF from the TD-20 to the Control 24 and mix within the TD-20.....you'll avoid the D/A and A/D step then and the noise that it generates, but you will lose the track separation.

You could consider recording MIDI channels and add the audio in the mixdown using MIDI and SPD/IF.....

For live playing, unless you really trust your engineer AND he has sufficient tracks on the house mixer for all of your analog outs, I would probably just send the TD-20 Master outs to the mixer so the P.A. only receives a stereo pair. If the live mixer has a SPD/IF input then use that.

Hope this helps.

[xavior]

lots of ways to do the same thing

Thanks BlickemBlickem and Hercules for your replies.
Looks like I have several options available and I'm gonna try them all to see which one('s) are best for me.
Just FYI incase anyone else would like this info, I didn't have 8 -30 foot unbalanced cables to try but I did have 2 (and not the best quality either)....so I ran them (TD 20) direct output (mains) into my octane "line in" inputs" and as expected I picked up a little "noise" on that long run.
As BlickmBlickem had said, a good quality cable would probably make a big difference. So for now I'm running the TD 20 outputs unbalanced (for about a 3 foot run) into a balanced TRS snake (as Hurcules had suggested) with pretty good results (probably due to the shielding of the snake).
I also like the ides of just using Midi and adding audio in the mixdown using SPD/If .... this has all the benefits Hurcules mentioned and frees up a lot of audio tracks in Pro Tools as well......
Thanks for all the input (on the TD 20 outputs) ...it's all very helpful.
Xavior

[Michael Render]

Two issues here. If you need to run a long snake in a recording sitution you may benefit from a line level shifter. It converts unbalanced -10 signals to balanced +4.

http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/LLS8/

Live, you want to go from high-impedence to low impendence. For that I use the Whirlwind Multi Director. They seem to be hard to find these days, but here is a link from a store I never heard of:

http://www.newworldproaudio.com/Whirlwind-MultiDirector-Passive-4-Channel-Direct-Box--Multi-Director_p_67-2037.html

[xavior]

Thanks Michael,

I checked out both sites and I think thats the ticket....thats what I'm looking for (Both units).

I see that Ebtech has an 8-channel line level shifter and a 2-channel shifter thats perfect for the studio(10 channels total....8 direct and 2 main).
And for "live" the wirldwind converting the TD 20 output signal to " balanced low Z mic level" is exactly what I thought might be needed. And I think I only need one because I'm probably better off just sending the 2 main outputs to the Front Sound Board.
--------------------------------------------------------------
It's funny how answering one question just leads to another...with that in mind..........can I assign the Main outputs to also come out of ...say output 1 and 2 ( or 3,4 whatever). The reason I would want to duplicate the main outputs is to be able to send my monitor head its own signal so that I can control my own "monitor" sound live.

Appriciate the help ...

Xavior

[Michael Render]

And I think I only need one because I'm probably better off just sending the 2 main outputs to the Front Sound Board.

I usually just send a single mono signal. I use the 4 unit DI because I have several instruments that need to be sent FOH.

It's funny how answering one question just leads to another...with that in mind..........can I assign the Main outputs to also come out of ...say output 1 and 2 ( or 3,4 whatever). The reason I would want to duplicate the main outputs is to be able to send my monitor head its own signal so that I can control my own "monitor" sound live.

You're overthinking the problem. The DI has not only a low Z out, but also a parallel high Z out. Send the low Z FOH and the high Z to your monitor.

[BlickemBlickem]

haveinc.com makes awesome cables i you need some

[Ramsh]

Yeah, I switched from my TD-8 to the TD-20 because of th outputs.
On the TD-8 I panned the kick to the far left and snare and toms to the far right on the main out because I want all the effects live (especially the ambience)

However, I didn't use the TD-20 live yet, but I have a DI box to get an XLR signal for the sound guy because they only or most time use XLR cables.
The DI also has a sound through (jack output).
I use the TD only for the acoustic drums and mics for the cymbals. The mics for the cymbals are connected to my mixer, the mixer got a balanced XLR output. The TD-20 goes to the 4 Input DI Kick, Snares, Toms, Effects
the outputs are Direct1,D2,D3,D8 because only on D8 ypu can route all effects like compression, EQ and ambience.

Because of the acoustic drums I'd like to use the stage monitors instead of headphones, normally they have a big monitor box right next to the drumkit.
If not, it's also because I use all XLR inputs fior the overhead mics, I'd need this one http://www.thomann.de/gb/monacor_ma_100_15.htm to use a line input of the mixer for the monitor signal of the sound guy.

[BarT]

The TD-20 goes to the 4 Input DI Kick, Snares, Toms, Effects
the outputs are Direct1,D2,D3,D8 because only on D8 ypu can route all effects like compression, EQ and ambience.

Ambience and effects can only be stereo though; so on direct output 8 you would only get ambience and effects from the Right channel, not the Left. Instrument compression and EQ will go to all outputs, but master comp/EQ only affects master and phones outputs.

Bruce

[Ramsh]

Ambience and effects can only be stereo though; so on direct output 8 you would only get ambience and effects from the Right channel, not the Left. Instrument compression and EQ will go to all outputs, but master comp/EQ only affects master and phones outputs.

Bruce

Yeah, I think I didn't remember right. I use a mono signal for ambience because for shows I have the kit set to mono. So it should be like D7 only.

[BarT]

I guess if everything's panned to center in the kit mixer then it doesn't make any difference.


Bruce