Upgrading the TD-3SW, within budget...

[forkburn]

I'm in need of advice for my first electronic practice kit, and so I appeal to the troves of expertise and experience that have enriched these boards. You guys are among Google's finest results!

Only two things need to be known: I'm a practicing drummer enamored with the post-bop jazz greats, and my ideal budget is $1500-ish. The latter is subject to reasoned change.. >_< That said, I have an idea of what I need: minimal equipment that best replicates the sound and feel of my 4-piece acoustic jazz kit.

So, in the interest of my budget, let the baseline be Roland's TD-3SW kit. Here's my question: in your esteemed opinions, which components should I upgrade on this $1000 kit for a minimal but worthy jazz practice experience?

First concern: the budget. Can anyone confirm that buying the factory packages is the cheapest way to get that first kit? I ask because I would love to pick and choose from the get go, but the overall cost of the same individual components sky rockets over a factory packaged kit with module.

Second concern: the sound. The TD-3 module is getting quite dated, I know, but is its sound and capabilities good enough for a no-frills jazz practice setup? Or are some features and sounds in the TD-6 or -9 worth adjusting my budget for? The number of inputs should not be a concern.

And the last but not least concern, the feel. I've listed below the upgrade candidates (about $300 a piece) in the order of importance to me. Which upgrades do you guys think are the most substantive?

• Mesh headed PDX-8 for the snare, good enough for awhile? Or is it no comparison versus the PD-105?
• Since the ride is of utmost importance to me, I ought to pick up the CY-15R right? Is it really that much better than the CY-12R?
• For the kick pad, can anyone offer any insight into the merits of mesh over rubber? If it means a much more sensitive acoustic-like response, I might consider annihilating my budget and go with mesh. (the KD-85 perhaps? gulp.. )
• And out of curiosity, how capable is the FD-8 controller in replicating that mid 60's Tony Williams hi-hat splash? Or is that relegated to the VH-12? Ugh I can't think of a more hip sound..

Please, enrich me by approving, criticizing or altogether readjusting my plan! All perspectives are welcomed and desired. Many thanks.

[SuperPuss]

Firstly, welcome aboard

I have not had a lot to do with the TD3 module but I am heavily influenced by the jazz greats and love anything from the be-bop era to now. I have my doubts as to whether you'd get what you want sound wise from a TD3 though.

If you can find a second hand TD12 module, you'd be much happier.
IMO, the PD105 is a MUCH better choice than a PDX8 (I have owned a PDX8 and currently have a PD105 and the difference is night and day).
I am more than happy with my CY12 as a ride but you may prefer the CY15.
My FD8 / CY5 hat setup works fine for me and I get the foot chink and splash reliably from it. There's a fair bit on this forum about people who've had problems with the FD8 on a TD3 though.

Here's a short clip of me playing my kit with brushes to give you an idea of a jazz feel on the TD12. Be gentle, I am by no means an experienced drummer!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5YmRg0WPH0

[EyeOne]

I have a TD-6.

The PDX-8 is pretty good. My only complaint is that the screws are on the inside of the rim and just get in the way. But other than that it feels nice.

KD-8 is good too. Doesn't really feel much like a real bass drum, but it works very well.

The FD-8. I don't like it much at all. I guess I just need to get used to it, but it feels so much different than a accoustic HH pedal to me. It's tight, and the board feels too long.

As far as the sound goes, it sounds pretty good. However, getting a splash-open sound is very tricky. Maybe I need to play with settings?

But none of this means I don't like my kit. I guess I was just focusing on the flaws for you. But for a practice kit, it sounds great and is easy to edit. I absolutely love my kit. I didn't get to play yesterday and I'm a little sad about that.

[ige87]

If I were you, I'd seriously consider piecing together a kit from new and second hand. If you only want a 4 piece jazz kit, you'd be far better off picking separate pads than buying a pre-packaged kit. Honestly, you'd probably be best with a TD-12 (if you can afford it) with a VH-11, a CY-15R and a PD-105. The rest you'd probably get away with lower end stuff like a CY-8 crash, KD-8 kick trigger and some older PD80(r) pads for a tom and floor.

Also, an older MDS-3C would be plenty to mount that all on, or even a motley collection of cymbal stands if the budget is that tight.

Thats the way I would go if I were in your situation. My TD-6 is fine for pretty much everything, except proper jazz playing, even with a VH-11 and a CY-15R. For a start I don't get the same 3-way triggered ride as I would with a TD-12, or as detailed hihat model.

[forkburn]

Wow, what an awesome board. Good lookin' out yo, thanks. But as expected, your responses begs as many questions as they answered.

General questions first:

1. Seems like the TD-12 is highly recommended for my cause. I'm all for yummy expensive upgrades, but tell me: other than the reported hi-hat splash problem, do the dynamic sensitivity and range of the sound suffer in the TD-3 versus the TD-12? Or even versus the TD-6 or -9? Obviously there is a huge number gap in the choice of sounds, but honestly I would be content with just one or two kits that sound nice. One thread I read in particular suggests that even a TD-6 would be beyond my needs (http://www.vdrums.com/forum/archive/...?t-27533.html), and even suggests the sounds on the TD-3 are NICER! Is that possible?
   
   
2. Ok, about the KD-8 kick pad: can you easily achieve different dynamics with it a la Elvin Jones? Or do I really have to upgrade to the KD-85 mesh to get it?

ige87:

1. Well counseled, I also think a piecemeal approach would be best and agree with your upgrade recommendations. However, two things stand in my way:
2. I'm wary of buying used pads since, after all, these parts are meant to be whacked into oblivion. From your experience, are there any parts that you would definitely get brand new rather than used?
3. It seems to me that the best deal for getting the "lower end stuff" is to go the pre-packaged route, especially if I decide to go with the TD-3. If everything is brand new, and with the cost of the TD-3SW at $880 (BPM), adding the CY-15R and PD-105 puts the final price around $1480. I can swallow that but I wonder.. how much would you be willing to pay for all that gear?

EyeOne:
Nice commentary on your TD-6 kit. Regarding the FD-8 issues you've been having, these threads may shed some light:

http://www.vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=308882

http://vdrums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23538&highlight=TD3

SuperPuss:

1. Very very useful perspective, especially coming from a fellow jazz journeyman. I tried out a friend's PDX-8 and it felt ok (these electronic kits are godsend to those living in cubicle-sized Hong Kong apartments..), but something tells me that's going to be the first component that I upgrade.
2. Regarding your comment suggesting I may not get "what I want sound wise from a TD-3", can you be more specific?
3. As for the hi-hat splash issue.. you're right, it does appear to be TD3-specific. Ugh that alone can force me up the module ladder.. nooooo!!! I'm just the type of guy who will get suckered a couple hundred bills for ONE feature..... well, looks like I'll have to head to a store and hopefully try it out for myself.
4. Thanks for the youtube link, but I'll have to escape my office firewall before I can check it out..

[ige87]

OK, general questions:
1. Sound quality is a very subjective thing. The best thing for you to do is go somewhere and try out the modules. The sounds on the TD-3 are of a newer generation than those on the TD-6, with the 3's being derived from the TD-20 and the 6's being derived from the TD-10. However, I personally prefer the sound of my TD-6 to the TD-3 a friend owns.

2. The KD-8 is possibly a little less dynamic than the KD-85, but I cant say for sure as I've not tried them side by side on the same module. Again, this is something you'd need to try for yourself. Some actually prefer the KD-8 to the 85, Michael Render being a prime example. Personally, I have no idea! The dynamic range is more to do with the module than the pads, and how it responds to the trigger signals.

'My' questions:
2. Mesh heads and trigger cones can be replaced. TBH, there's things are darn sturdy, it'd take a lot of abuse to actually break them. Think about how the demo kits in shops get treated, and how long they are usually on the floor before they get replaced. If I were in your situation, I'd probably buy a new module at the very least, or look for ex demo stuff. MY CY-15R was used for a few hours at a trade show before being sent for clearance and I can see no adverse effects. If you buy ex demo stuff, you still get full waranty cover. I certainly wouldn't worry about going second hand for a rack/set of stands as long as you know its ok before you buy it.

3. How much would I be willing to pay? Erm, it dpends how much I want it. Put it this way, if I know I can get it cheaper somehow, I'll do it, but I see no reason to miss out being miserly. Be aware that with the TD-3, you won't get proper 3 way triggering without a lot of fiddling. You will get it with the TD-6 with some clever setting up, and you will get it plug and play with a TD-12.

Oh, and I know this wasn't one of 'my' questions, but the TD-6 suffers the splash level problem as well as the TD-3. Also, I'm really not a fan of the PDX-8.

[forkburn]

Phew.. very thoughtful reply. Hey bud, it's appreciated!

So I just spent an hour in Guitar Center, playing everything within and without my budget. Man was that instructive and hella fun! I think that I cannot resist the TD-9. The slick look aside, I just can't accept the new features I'm missing out on if I chose a lesser module.

But that was a very interesting fact you brought up, that the TD-3 sound patches are of the TD-20 lineage; it did sound quite nice though I'm no judge. Might you happen to know if the TD-9 sounds are an extension of the TD-10 or -20?

I spent some quality time on both the KD-8 and -85. I'd have to say that the KD-8 suffices, or is it more accurate to say that the TD-9 module did its job admirably! The dynamics were responsive enough to emulate Elvin's accents.

By the way, no matter what I tried, I could not get a hi-hat splash out of the TD-3. However, it rang out effortlessly on the TD-9, and boy did I fall in love with it right away.

This is it baby, I'm busting the budget: going with a TD-9S + CY-15R. Ima pick that ish up tomorrow then lock myself up ^_^ See you guys next year heh

Thank you all again for the useful input.

(And thanks SuperPuss, I dug your video. Man the TD-12 sounds great! I hope the TD-9 can stack up..)

[SuperPuss]

.......
SuperPuss:

1. Very very useful perspective, especially coming from a fellow jazz journeyman. I tried out a friend's PDX-8 and it felt ok (these electronic kits are godsend to those living in cubicle-sized Hong Kong apartments..), but something tells me that's going to be the first component that I upgrade.
   

1. No doubt. That and the ride were first for me. The PD105 really is a mile better IMO, especially on a TD12 module with it's capabilities nuance wise.
   

2. Regarding your comment suggesting I may not get "what I want sound wise from a TD-3", can you be more specific?