Problem with MIDI and Vdrumlib

[viva1924]

Hi,
I'm having problems downloading kits from VDRUMLIB to my TD-12.
The MIDI cable is O.K because MIDI works fine (when i play a midi file on the computer i hear the sounds from the module).
I bulked dumped the TD-12 to vdrumlib with no problem, but it does not work the other way..
Thanks
Oren

by the way the cable is the one from dealextreme



24/5 no one??

[SiliconDrummer]

The MIDI cable is O.K because MIDI works fine (when i play a midi file on the computer i hear the sounds from the module).

That does NOT prove that the MIDI cable is okay, because midi sound files do NOT contain any sysex messages. Likewise, Roland kit backups contain ONLY sysex messages and NO midi notes. So, you still need to determine if the cable is capable of sending and receiving sysex messages.

I bulked dumped the TD-12 to vdrumlib with no problem, but it does not work the other way..

Can you tell us exactly what you mean by "not working" -- do you have an error message on your TD-12, or does your TD-12 not display a "receiving data" message, or does your PC display an error, or what?

Also, if you are trying to send the bulk dump that you just created, you need to first test to see if that dump is any good. Maybe you can't send it because your dump is not really as good as you think. Can you post your .syx bulk Dump here so that I can test it to see if your bulk dump is good?

I am attaching two good .syx bulk dumps so that you can test with a known good file. The smaller file contains only single kit. The larger one contains 50 factory preset kits -- I changed the name of kit #1 so that you can see it after it dumps.

Btw, several people have reported problems with a cheap cable from dealextreme. Here is one of those:

http://vdrums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=305354&postcount=18

And here is what he did to solve it:

http://vdrums.com/forum/showpost.php?p=305563&postcount=21

In general, ANY cable that does not provide drivers will probably have problems because the "class compliant" driver that Microsoft provides with windows has known bugs with sysex messages. The better adapters do a better job working around Microsoft's bugs, but the best adapters provide their own drivers that don't have the bug! This is why I recommend the Edirol UM-1ex -- it works VERY, VERY WELL!

-SD-

[jweaver]

I finally got my "cheap and cheerful" Ebay special yesturday and appeared to work straight away.. Midi OX shows stuff in the Monitor when I play, so on face value you would think that its working.

But when I tried a 'dump' of any kind to VDrumLib, the resulting file could not be opened (Says that its from an 'Unknown device').. I also tried in TDStudio and when thats recieving the data, it says something about "Ignoring Invalid Data"

The conclusion is that this was a complete waste of money, and now I need to go back to the drawing board and get myself an M-Audio or Erdil cable instead!

I am gutted, I so need to get VEX on my TD-8!

Jon

[Alan VEX]

I keep telling people to steer away from the no-name cables. I'm sorry you got taken. Hopefully, others will learn from this lesson.

[eddy41]

'The conclusion is that this was a complete waste of money, and now I need to go back to the drawing board and get myself an M-Audio or Erdil cable instead!': jweaver

Not only your money, Sunshine

[allanjohn]

I can only say that my Dealextreme cable continues to do its job without problems for botha TD3 and a TD8. They have good after-sales support, so if yours isn't working, I'd suggest sending it back and getting it replaced (using their return mechanism).

[jweaver]

I can only say that my Dealextreme cable continues to do its job without problems for botha TD3 and a TD8. They have good after-sales support, so if yours isn't working, I'd suggest sending it back and getting it replaced (using their return mechanism).

Mine isn't the DealExtreme one.. Mine is a generic Ebay cable..

I am 99% sure that the problem is 'flow control'.. When you do a dump, the brain just 'squirts' its data out of the MIDI port and expects the MIDI device (in this case PC) to catch it.

I think that the PC is simply unable to keep up and is dropping/missing data...

I have a feeling that the way the more expensive cables work is that they have 'RAM' onboard.. So when the Brain does its dump, the data ends up in the RAM in the cable. Then, this is sent to the PC using a more efficient communication process which allow the PC to use 'flow control' (i.e hang on.. Slow down.. I missed a bit so resend)..

So, the MIDI to RAM cable is taken care of by good old fashioned 'fire and forget' technology.. And then the RAM to PC is taken care of using a much more efficent system!

Thats my theory anyway...

If someone is having success with one of the 'cheap' cables, then it possibly luck more than judgement.. As perhaps the PC has enough resource (i.e RAM, CPU) to keep up.. Where as other PCs might struggle.


Jon

[SiliconDrummer]

I am 99% sure that the problem is 'flow control'.. When you do a dump, the brain just 'squirts' its data out of the MIDI port and expects the MIDI device (in this case PC) to catch it.

I think that the PC is simply unable to keep up and is dropping/missing data...

Good theory, but the answer is probably simpler than that. They probably just don't support sysex messages at all.

Sysex messages have a completely different API than all other MIDI messages. These cables are probably just designed to handle standard MIDI musical performances and they probably don't make any claims beyond that.

But, you bought the cable because you want to transfer drum kits. Drum kits are 100% sysex messages -- no note on/off, no CC messages, just long sysex packets. Unfortunatley, most consumers don't know that there is any difference, so they incorrectly assume that if the cable handles MIDI then it must work for all applications. This would be nice, but it just isn't true for all cases.

Another problem with sysex is that Microsoft has some "undocumented limitations" in their "USB Audio Device" driver. So, the cable manufacturer has to do special things to work around these issues. Since Microsoft doesn't document this, most of these cheap cables don't even know about it, so they don't handle it correctly.

Even some of the more expensive cables have problems. For example, one thing that bothers me about the M-Audio cable is that the instructions that come with the unit say that "no driver is needed". But, if you go to their website and dig around their FAQ, you'll see that they have a special driver for the UNO. If you click the link, the intro says you do not need the driver UNLESS... you need to send and receive long SYSEX packets reliably! So, in reality -- YOU NEED THE DRIVER! I have brought this issue to their attention and they say that most customers DO NOT USE SYSEX.

I'm not surprised that they feel this way because I bet nobody calls their customer support -- they just post messages here. Since they don't know that a problem exists, they will never try to fix it.

-SD-

[irishblue]

Is vdrumlib known to work with the yamaha ux16 cable?

I have installed and updated its driver. The midi in cable is connected to the in port on the module, same for the out. I've tried a couple of times. After initiating the "receive sysex", I do a bulk dump on my TD-6v module. It completes the bulk dump on the module, yet on the vdrumlib program, it is still "waiting for data" and doesn't get to the receiving part.

Is it a problem with the cable? ...or something else?

[SiliconDrummer]

Is vdrumlib known to work with the yamaha ux16 cable?

Well, I have no experience with the UX16, but I did a google search on "Yamaha UX16 Sysex", and I found many links that say that the UX16 does NOT do sysex. Click the following link to see for yourself:
Google of "Yamaha UX16 Sysex"

Maybe you should contact Yamaha and ask them if it supports sysex, then let us know what you find out.

-SD-

[Mutnat]

Is vdrumlib known to work with the yamaha ux16 cable?

I have installed and updated its driver. The midi in cable is connected to the in port on the module, same for the out. I've tried a couple of times. After initiating the "receive sysex", I do a bulk dump on my TD-6v module. It completes the bulk dump on the module, yet on the vdrumlib program, it is still "waiting for data" and doesn't get to the receiving part.

Is it a problem with the cable? ...or something else?

Depending on how your cable is labelled, you may need to reverse the cabling. If the midi adapter is labelled from the drum's perspective, then you are correct to attach IN to IN and OUT to OUT. However, if the adapter is labelled from the computer's perspective (mine is), then you have to attach MIDI OUT from your drums to IN on the adapter, and vice-versa. This way, OUTput from your drum module goes INto the midi adapter and computer. Makes sense, right?

[irishblue]

thanks SiliconDrummer and Mutnat.
I'll try Mutnat's suggestion and reverse the cables and see if that helps. Else looks like I gotta change the cable since many people seem to say it doesn't work. Any idea which ones are tried and tested? does M-Audio work ok?

[sciomako]

I'm one of the counter-examples: my generic cable works fine with TD-10exp.

Two things I would suggest:

1. Plug in the MIDI cable to both the PC and module and turn on the PC first. Turn on the module last.

2. Always initiate the action at the VDrumLib end first. e.g. when you dump from the module, start the receiving action in VDrumLib first

[irishblue]

Just an update... I swapped the in / out cables and wala~ it worked! yay!
Thanks mutnat!

[Mutnat]

No worries. It's not very intuitive, and it's a crapshoot from interface to interface which way they've labeled it (from PC's perspective, or instrument's perspective).