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New Yammy DTX stuff coming in next week

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  • Originally posted by Chris K View Post

    There is no "massively multi-layer samples" with all these feature at this price point, it use more layers then AD5 just to start of and cost lower,
    How many layers does the Yamaha use? ATV uses 8 velocity layers with 4 samples per layer round robin on snares and 2 per layer on toms (should have used 4). Nowhere close to 2Box but not bad. Plus near universal pad/cymbal compatibility. Admittedly it lacks all the other features you mention.

    ATV aDrums, ATV aD5, eDRUMin, Presonus Quantum 2, SD3

    Comment


    • I save my critical listening for when Drum-tec demonstrates the DTX-PRO.

      At present, the quality of the video content is only good enough for general tone - which is good. It doesn't have that artificial character like Roland modules.

      I'm sure Drum-tec are excited to bundle the module with a lot of their kits actually, considering Yamaha has left the door wide open to many better 5 piece solutions then what they offer with the DTX6 series. Especially if Roland or ATV cymbals are supported by the DTX-PRO. Their compatibility table isn't even helpful.
      ◾ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ◾ MegaDRUM
      ◾ Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ◾ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ◾ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring ◾ Pearl THMP-1
      PA Comparison Sheet

      Comment


      • Originally posted by CrashTheRide View Post
        Please show me where. (Ed Show examples of machine gunning in the DTX-Pro module.)
        I listened critically to all the promotional examples from Yamaha. Small speakers, especially those built into laptops, tablets, and mobile devices, are not revealing enough. You must use a good sound system with a good accurate pair of speakers. Although better than the previous DTX modules which had very noticeable machine gunning all the time, this new DTX-Pro module seems better yet still machine guns on rapid notes. Listen to gliss / pickup notes, double stroke rolls, and quick figures on the snare drum and toms. Within the tracks though, and when the room ambience modifier is turned up fairly high, the machine gunning is covered up, but it's there none-the-less, if you listen carefully.

        To my ear, the DTX-Pro sounds sit reasonably well in a mix and are fairly acoustically believable. I'm not so sure I'd be happy with the sounds for drum practice (where I really want to hear the subtleties of my playing) or in situations where the drums are clearly audible in an intimate setting. That said, the module offers (possibly) the largest array of sound shaping and practice features in its price class.

        Comment


        • I have the simmons sd2000 pads with mesh heads that work well with yammy modules (dtx500 dtx502 and dtxtreme 3) ... 2-ply mesh heads with center mounted trigger cones that wired like yamaha that i get 3 zones (head, side and rimshot) on all pads. Will wait for the bigger module to try out.

          Comment


          • Someone earlier in the thread suggested Yamaha could outfit the Stage Custom Hip with mesh heads and internal triggers. Exactly! Better yet, Yamaha could offer a budget, compact, electronic kit that includes: 14 SD, 12 RT, 14 FT, and 18 BD in self-standing acoustic size shells (rack tom mounts on the bass drum, floor tom stands on its own legs), with appropriately sized cymbals (hi-hat, two crash, and a ride). And to round out the lineup for larger kits, there could be 10 RT, 16 FT, and 20 BD options. All of these drums and cymbals would offer analog, full cross-module compatibility, and modes for positional sensing and hot spot elimination.

            ^^^ This is the kind of innovation and leadership I'd like to see from Yamaha. None of the major e-drum companies offer a full range of acoustic sizes. I suspect, even without patenting, if Yamaha offered these sizes in shell packs and singles, attractively / affordably priced, they'd knock the Roland VAD series on its butt. And with Yamaha's huge (and rightly deserved) reputation for quality and worldwide distribution and retailer support, these pads would become the de facto standard for e-drums.

            Imagine if this had been part of the DTX 6 series. That would have been a revolutionary way for Yamaha to re-enter the e-drum space and iit would have caught everyone's attention. I suspect a lot of drummers would have become customers immediately, I sure would have. As it is, the DTX 6 series is a curiosity signaling Yamaha is actively developing e-drums again, but past that it's of no interest to me.
            Last edited by TangTheHump; 11-21-20, 12:36 PM.

            Comment


            • Other than satisfying drummers who absolutely need an e-kit to look just like an acoustic kit, why would you need the same drum sizes as acoustic kits? It will cost more, and the trigger response will be poorer on bigger drums with mesh heads. I genuinely can’t see the point in having anything bigger than 12” for a rack tom, 14” for a floor tom, and 18” for a bass drum for anything other than visual effect.

              And the truth is, at least 75% of e-kit sales and associated profit is in standard e-kits for beginners, amateurs, and small and quiet home practice. Their new kits satisfy that. I think the VAD kits will stimulate Yamaha to look at their own version, but why start with the thing that will sell the least volume and make the least profit?

              I'm not arguing against your desire for innovation, more realistic options, or tools that are designed for professional use. But it’s like asking for (pardon the U.K. bias) Ford to stop making the Fiesta and just make Mustangs. They need the Fiesta to make the profit to justify the Mustang, which makes new drivers dreaming about the Mustang choose the Fiesta.
              Roland TM-6 Pro and TD-11 modules with Roland RT30 triggers and Yamaha PCY cymbals. Plus all the acoustic stuff.

              Comment


              • Agree, and they aim at the home user who wants a compact set up
                not a large stage filler
                Robert

                Comment


                • Unkle Kev wrote:
                  Other than satisfying drummers who absolutely need an e-kit to look just like an acoustic kit, why would you need the same drum sizes as acoustic kits? It will cost more and the trigger response will be poorer on bigger drums with mesh heads.

                  puttenvr wrote:
                  Agree, and they aim at the home user who wants a compact set up not a large stage filler.
                  There are a few ideas / questions here that I'll expand on, as follows:

                  (1) "Why would you need the same drum sizes as acoustic kits?" I'm a drummer, not an electronic drummer, just a drummer. I want to use the history, traditions, and techniques of drumming, and that's not possible with small, toy-sized pads. Larger sizes allow greater expression, because the larger playing areas allow a range of technical approaches and sticking approaches that are greatly limited by (or not possible with) smaller playing areas. Also, I play acoustic drums and want to train my spatial recognition and timing for that instrument.

                  Would you ask a pianist "Why do you need proper sized piano keys?" I suppose you could indeed ask and the pianist would say something like "I'm a pianist and I play piano; without proper keys, that's not a piano, and I have little interest in learning alternate technique that does not work well on the instrument I play."

                  (2) "It will cost more and the trigger response will be poorer on bigger drums with mesh heads." These notions are seemingly the byproduct of e-drum marketing. In my own experience playing a large variety of e-drum sizes, from 6 to 18, triggering performance has been very consistent across all the sizes. If anything, the larger diameters provide a more natural dynamic response and help avoid hot spots. Regarding cost, larger diameter shells do not cost materially more. Even as a hobbyist buying small quantities of shells from Keller at full retail, the difference in cost as shells go up in size is fairly negligible. See the price table below:

                  Keller VSS 5 Ply Shells (2020, full retail, USD)
                  8 RT: $48
                  10 RT: $54
                  12 RT: $56
                  14 SD: $48
                  14 FT: $62
                  16 FT: $112
                  18 FT: $140
                  20 BD: $148

                  These are full retail prices for singles. Companies like Roland and Yamaha pay only a fraction of these costs, because they buy industrially and at large bulk discounts. Look at the cost per shell from 8 inches to 14 inches; it's almost the same. The larger sizes (16 and upward) start showing a material difference, and even then acoustic drum companies have figured out how to negate this. I suspect V-Drums members know that nowadays one can buy an acoustic kit with 14 SD, 12 RT, 14 FT, and 18 or 20 BD, with hardware and heads included, for $500 to $600 USD.

                  (3) "They aim at the home user who wants a compact setup, not a large stage filler." Acoustic sized drums that stand on their own do not necessarily take up more space than rack-based kits with small pads. Rack-based kits often take up more space specifically because the racks stick out well above the floor, taking up usable room space. This is why my acoustic bop kits take up less space than my electronic bop kit. Moreover, the reason I want e-drums in acoustic sizes is the same as I noted above: I'm a drummer, not an e-drummer and not a toy drummer, and I want to train and use a wide range of drumming technique and drumming expression.
                  Last edited by TangTheHump; 11-21-20, 02:15 PM.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by puttenvr View Post
                    Agree, and they aim at the home user who wants a compact set up
                    not a large stage filler
                    i would really love to see some market research back this POV up as while it is often mentioned here when the acoustic sizes vs small pad debate comes up, very rarely do i see it mentioned by people researching to buy ekits anywhere else. occasionally in my experience i will see someone asking about the footprint of the rack to fit in a given space but far more commonly the things i see mentioned are

                    - price
                    - feel compared to acoustic
                    - volume level (as quiet seems to be the #1 motivator for most e-kit buyers)
                    - quality of the sounds
                    - reliability

                    additionally you regularly see reminders from drum teachers to new drummers to set their e-kits up in the same manner they would their acoustic kit to not develop poor ergonomics and so that their skills will be transferrable should they play an a-kit.

                    really in my opinion if you're trying to be more compact you're more likely to be opting for a small 4 piece setup with only 1-2 crash, ride, and hats rather than a monster neil peart kit whether you're going for an e-kit or an acoustic and those that are really truly trying to have the smallest footprint possible are opting to just use sample pads like the SPD-X or whatever.

                    and if there truly was a huge desire for the smallest footprint e-kit with actual pads, why did roland stop making the "easily collapsible" folding racks like on the td-4kp to quickly fold up for storage or transport? why is no one else making one? i mean surely if space is at such a premium than you'd think the demand would have been there for such a thing.

                    not to say that no one wants smaller pads for a smaller foot print (there are a few members i have seen state that here) but i see very few people saying it elsewhere.
                    Alesis STRIKE, PD-85 rack toms, PD-105BK floor tom, Mapex snare with ISM-6, PDP MX 22" kick with ISM, iron cobra 900 double pedal, hart e-cymbal2, CY-5 as splash, CY-8, CY-12R, L80 hi-hat with cheap-o trigger with goedrum hi hat controller. EZdrummer2+EZX/Addictive Drums 2 VSTs.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                      I

                      I don't worry about listening equipment, I use professional studio equipment.
                      You're right, the rest of the dtx modules sound old and artificial.
                      it is on weak speakers that you can hear maching gunning, because these hums and nuances are missing.

                      this dtx pro sounds good to me so far. I asked you to point to where you find maching gunning. I would like to check, maybe I missed it.

                      Please remember, I don't argue, I check myself what's up in modules.

                      Comment


                      • Winterson,

                        Originally posted by winterson View Post
                        i would really love to see some market research back this POV up as while it is often mentioned here when the acoustic sizes vs small pad debate comes up, very rarely do i see it mentioned by people researching to buy ekits anywhere else. occasionally in my experience i will see someone asking about the footprint of the rack to fit in a given space but far more commonly the things i see mentioned are

                        - price
                        - feel compared to acoustic
                        - volume level (as quiet seems to be the #1 motivator for most e-kit buyers)
                        - quality of the sounds
                        - reliability

                        additionally you regularly see reminders from drum teachers to new drummers to set their e-kits up in the same manner they would their acoustic kit to not develop poor ergonomics and so that their skills will be transferrable should they play an a-kit.

                        really in my opinion if you're trying to be more compact you're more likely to be opting for a small 4 piece setup with only 1-2 crash, ride, and hats rather than a monster neil peart kit whether you're going for an e-kit or an acoustic and those that are really truly trying to have the smallest footprint possible are opting to just use sample pads like the SPD-X or whatever.

                        and if there truly was a huge desire for the smallest footprint e-kit with actual pads, why did roland stop making the "easily collapsible" folding racks like on the td-4kp to quickly fold up for storage or transport? why is no one else making one? i mean surely if space is at such a premium then you'd think the demand would have been there for such a thing.

                        not to say that no one wants smaller pads for a smaller foot print (there are a few members i have seen state that here) but i see very few people saying it elsewhere.
                        You nailed my reasoning and use case spot on. Thank you for explaining this better than I was able to. Much appreciated. :-)

                        Comment


                        • The problem is thinking in absolute terms with this.

                          There are specific reasons I suggested the Stage Custom Hip over something like Stage Custom Birch or Beech Custom which are full size shells.

                          1) It is one of Yamaha's lowest cost new kits being manufactured.
                          2) It uses a half size bass drum and free standing floor tom.
                          3) It's important they are being manufactured already, because I believe it would be Yamaha's business interest not to start from scratch, but to convert what they already have from a production line, with internal triggers.

                          So I agree with many of the points on both sides; about size and triggering performance, but I also think paying basically £200 for a 7 inch trigger pad that looks nothing like a acoustic drum shell is bad value.

                          E-drums still seem to exist - and treated as - a separate entity. Existing in a completely different market that when spoken about, outside these forums, bears no resemblance to acoustic drumming once you look at the costs involved. I think this is the main point Tang is getting at. You either see this hypocrisy, or you don't. Or perhaps one thinks the costs are all justified, even when a piezo costs pennies. Take the cost of the module away, and just look at what you are buying.

                          Why shouldn't we expect acoustic looking edrums with real pad diameters (Yes, which should be slightly below full size diameters, but not real depths as there's no point) when the shell prices for these cocktail kits (prehaps Yamaha's Junior Manu Katche) are cheaper and looks better, than what you are given with these ridiculous 7 inch edrum pads on a black rack.
                          Last edited by Kabonfaiba; 11-21-20, 02:30 PM.
                          ◾ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ◾ MegaDRUM
                          ◾ Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ◾ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ◾ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring ◾ Pearl THMP-1
                          PA Comparison Sheet

                          Comment


                          • CrashTheRide,

                            Originally posted by CrashTheRide View Post
                            This dtx pro sounds good to me so far. I asked you to point to where you find machine gunning. I would like to check, maybe I missed it.
                            I wasn't avoiding your question. Sorry if that's how my reply came across. :-)

                            I didn't keep the links and rather just clicked the video examples in this thread. If you go back through the thread, you'll find these videos. Also, someone in the thread posted a link to Yamaha's tutorials on the DTX-Pro module. The link only had a playlist of about four videos, but I clicked the associated Yamaha channel and it had approximately two dozen tutorial videos on the DTX-Pro. You can hear more of the naked sounds in these videos. I don't have the links for these either, but if you go back through this thread, you'll fined the source; it's in this thread somewhere!

                            Comment


                            • Kabonfaiba,

                              Originally posted by Kabonfaiba View Post
                              The problem is thinking in absolute terms with this.

                              There are specific reasons I suggested the Stage Custom Hip over something like Stage Custom Birch or Beech Custom which are full size shells.

                              1) It is one of Yamaha's lowest cost new kits being manufactured.
                              2) It uses a half size bass drum and free standing floor tom.
                              3) It's important they are being manufactured already, because I believe it would be Yamaha's business interest not to start from scratch, but to convert what they already have from a production line, with internal triggers.

                              So I agree with many of the points on both sides; about size and triggering performance, but I also think paying basically £200 for a 7 inch trigger pad that looks nothing like a acoustic drum shell is bad value.

                              E-drums still seem to exist - and treated as - a separate entity. Existing in a completely different market that when spoken about, outside these forums, bears no resemblance to acoustic drumming once you look at the costs involved. I think this is the main point Tang is getting at. You either see this hypocrisy, or you don't. Or perhaps one thinks the costs are all justified, even when a piezo costs pennies. Take the cost of the module away, and just look at what you are buying.

                              Why shouldn't we expect acoustic looking edrums with real pad diameters (Yes, which should be slightly below full size diameters, but not real depths as there's no point) when the shell prices for these cocktail kits (prehaps Yamaha's Junior Manu Katche) are cheaper and looks better, than what you are given with these ridiculous 7 inch edrum pads on a black rack.
                              We're both in the same ballpark on this, though we have slightly different use cases. The reason I (myself) would not use the Stage Custom Hip is because I want sizes that match my acoustic drums. In as much as it may seem excessively picky, I don't want a 13 inch snare drum, 10 inch rack tom, and 13 inch floor tom. Nope. I want a 14 inch snare drum, 12 inch rack tom, and 14 inch floor tom, not only because these match my acoustic kits, but also because these are the most common sizes I encounter at gigs, while teaching, and so on. At any rate, thank you for understanding my use case and for underlining the hypocrisy and poor value I find with e-drum sizes and pricing.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by winterson View Post

                                i would really love to see some market research back this POV up as while it is often mentioned here when the acoustic sizes vs small pad debate comes up, very rarely do i see it mentioned by people researching to buy ekits anywhere else. .

                                Ikutaro Kakehashi said Roland would focus on instruments for home users and online music producers in an interview many years ago.
                                it is however a fact that a kit with 12 and 14 inch pads can be compact too
                                I do have a DrumTec kit with those sizes
                                Robert

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