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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Chris K wrote:
    Small pad are useful live hybrid drumming (the most popular setup for e-drum live) with acoustic drum, percussion setup, placing pad on percussion setup, acoustic kit, near hi-hat, snare, floors, any area position, no one will use full large size set with acoustic drum.
    Agreed. But, I'm not talking about augmenting an acoustic drum kit or augmenting acoustic percussion setups. Rather, I'm talking about a key factor that keeps mainstream drummers away from e-drums: the lack of proper, acoustic sizes,or at least playable sizes that provide enough room for a large range of drumming techniques and expression.

    Chris K wrote:
    Also, there many people do not have space on a small apartment, or their house with no basement, they cannot use full size large size pad or acoustic depth size, Sometimes the kit is just near the bed or face the wall tight.
    This is the marketing misnomer that seemingly e-drum companies are capitalizing on, but it is just that, a misnomer. I perform, practice, and teach in huge rooms, medium size rooms, small rooms, and the tiniest of spaces only large enough for a bed and a drum kit... and I use the same amount of space regardless of what type of kit I'm playing, electronic or acoustic.

    The human body and the spatial dynamics the body needs for drum kit playing do not change, regardless of whether a kit has 6 inch pads or more traditional, acoustic sizes. My acoustic setup is (typically) 14 SD, 12 RT, 14 FT, and 18 BD. My e-drum kit uses the same amount of space, despite that its sizes are considerably smaller, 12 SD, 10 RT, 12 FT, and 14 BD. And if I went with even smaller e-drum sizes, it wouldn't make a difference, because I'd place the smaller pads with their centers in the same positions as the acoustic kit and the larger e-drum kit, because those are the spatial dynamics my body needs in order to work properly.

    For perspective, when I'm using acoustic drums only, the same spatial rules apply. It doesn't really matter whether I use a 16, 18, 20, or 22 inch bass drum, or smaller or larger toms, because largely what dictates the space of the kit is the position of my ride cymbal, throne, and music stand. Those three key items stay the same and typically the larger and smaller drums are always within that space, so it makes no difference what size drums I use. The space used remains fairly much the same.

    Why use smaller drums then? Where smaller drums make a difference is during transportation. An 18x14 bass drum fits anywhere in my car (front seat, back seat, and behind the back seat) and is easy to move through doorways and stairways. The same is not true of larger bass drums, like 22x16, 22x18, and upward, which only fit in my car when the back seat down and are often difficult to move through doorways and stairways. So, the smaller drums are MUCH easier to transport for gigs, but my choice to use smaller drums has very little to do with how much space I use while playing. Most importantly, for playability reasons, certain drums always remain the same size, such as the snare drum (always a 14) and toms (often 12 RT and 14 FT, but sometimes 10 RT, 12 RT, and 14 FT or 16 FT).

    I don't think I'm much different from drummers around the world. What seems clear is e-drum companies typically do not have drummers in their product research groups, or if drummers are in these groups, then (seemingly) the companies ignore the feedback of these drummers. The reason I say this is many deficiencies in e-drums are such fundamental things that pretty much any reasonably proficient drummer would point these out: lack of proper drum sizes, hot spots, and lack of 360 degree sensitivity in cymbals are all examples. Cymbals are perhaps the best example of all, because drummers typically do not play cymbals head-on (crash cymbals never and ride cymbals only sometimes) and yet the large majority of e-cymbals provide only head-on sensitivity.
    Last edited by TangTheHump; 12-21-20, 03:06 PM.

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  • puttenvr
    replied
    Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post

    Any semi-proficient drummer will tell you this isn't true. One sets up the drums for the human body and this dedicates where the pads are placed. It's not as though smaller diameters suddenly let you place the pads right beside you. Additional spaces between you and small pads are still necessary and used, it's just these spaces are not filled with playing surfaces.
    That's what I say

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  • Chris K
    replied
    Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post

    Any semi-proficient drummer will tell you this isn't true. One sets up the drums for the human body and this dedicates where the pads are placed. It's not as though smaller diameters suddenly let you place the pads right beside you. Additional spaces between you and small pads are still necessary and used, it's just these spaces are not filled with playing surfaces.

    The key advantage of small pads is likely for e-drum companies and not for drummers. Small pads allow the entire kit to be shipped in a single box, which makes shipping less expensive and tracking less complex. This savings may be passed onto the customer, but really, any savings is largely irrelevant because the playability of the resulting kit is severely limited by the small sizes.
    Small pad are useful live hybrid drumming (the most popular setup for edrum live) with acoustic drum, percussion setup, placing pad on percussion setup, acoustic kit, near hihat, snare, floors, any area position, no one will use full large size set with acoustic drum. Also there is many people do not have space on a small apartment, or their house with no baseman, they cannot use full size large size pad or acoustic depth size, sometime the kit is just near the bed or face the wall tight.
    Last edited by Chris K; 12-19-20, 03:50 AM.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Originally posted by Peter Warren View Post
    They talked about an EF note 7 at NAMM that might have larger sizes.
    This is very, very strange. The site is showing all my posts as "Unapproved" and will not let me to edit existing posts. What's going on?

    I cannot edit my post above so I'm making a new post, albeit I'm not sure if any of my posts are showing up now! Here is what I was trying to post:

    There was an EF Note 7 kit on the EF Note website for quite some time, but the kit had some very odd sizes (an 11 inch rack tom, for example) and now the kit has been entirely removed from the site.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Unnecessary post removed by author, TangTheHump. Yes, that's me typing this! :-)
    Last edited by TangTheHump; 12-16-20, 08:20 PM.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Originally posted by puttenvr View Post
    As said before: the largest market for e-drums is the home user (budget, mid) market where compact sized drums suggest you need less room. Which is not true when you are a long person, like me, and set up the kit wide.
    Any semi-proficient drummer will tell you this isn't true. One sets up the drums for the human body and this dedicates where the pads are placed. It's not as though smaller diameters suddenly let you place the pads right beside you. Additional spaces between you and small pads are still necessary and used, it's just these spaces are not filled with playing surfaces.

    The key advantage of small pads is likely for e-drum companies and not for drummers. Small pads allow the entire kit to be shipped in a single box, which makes shipping less expensive and tracking less complex. This savings may be passed onto the customer, but really, any savings is largely irrelevant because the playability of the resulting kit is severely limited by the small sizes.

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  • Peter Warren
    replied
    They talked about an Efnote 7 at NAMM that might have larger sizes.

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  • puttenvr
    replied
    As said before: the largest market for e-drums is the home user (budget, mid) market where compact sized drums suggest you need less room. Which is not true when you are a long person, like me, and set up the kit wide.
    Last edited by puttenvr; 12-16-20, 01:31 PM.

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  • Chance27
    replied
    Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post

    Thumbs up. This is prudent advice.

    Myself, based on what I've seen and heard from EF Note, I think there is quite a difference in cohesion and focus as compared to ATV. I don't know the details of ATV's internal struggles, but their products sounded great and filled very specific holes in the market not addressed by the Big Three.

    Who is EF Note is selling to? None of their products address market segments not already provided better by the Big Three. More worrisome is EF Note continues the tired, soon-to-be obsolete e-drum standard of 10 and 12 inch sizes everywhere. The module sounds dry and mediocre, it machine guns, and it is such a small form factor that usability and readability are affected. There is so little room for I/O that the module uses not one, but rather *TWO* cable snakes.

    The flip side is it seems EF Note manufactures to high standards of quality; ostensibly, they offer some of the best built e-drum gear I've seen to date. That's all fine and good, but the design and targeting of their products remains an enigma to me. What is EF Note's value proposition? Seriously, I have no idea. What I do know is the next time I buy more e-drums, I will insist on proper acoustic sizes, so that rules out all of EF Note's current offerings.
    I agree with you, I don’t get the same feeling from EFNote as I did with ATV. I am vey leery of them. Also, I think they made a strategic error in the shell sizes for the efnote 5, Why are they doing the same pads sizes as the efnote3? The 5 should be a flagship with appropriate acoustical sizes. At least Roland had the common sense to finally offer 20/10//12/14 /14s configurations.

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  • TangTheHump
    replied
    Originally posted by bpaluzzi View Post
    Anyone considering EF Note should be very cautious. ATV entered into a much more friendly competitive environment (i.e. before VAD was introduced), and they've still had to pull out of the US. The Chinese tariffs and COVID were the nails in the coffin, but they've been in trouble since long before that. Promised expansions never came, the sound store has been massively under-delivering, and in general they've never been able to move above the "tiny bit player" role.
    Thumbs up. This is prudent advice.

    Myself, based on what I've seen and heard from EF Note, I think there is quite a difference in cohesion and focus as compared to ATV. I don't know the details of ATV's internal struggles, but their products sounded great and filled very specific holes in the market not addressed by the Big Three.

    Who is EF Note is selling to? None of their products address market segments not already provided better by the Big Three. More worrisome is EF Note continues the tired, soon-to-be obsolete e-drum standard of 10 and 12 inch sizes everywhere. The module sounds dry and mediocre, it machine guns, and it is such a small form factor that usability and readability are affected. There is so little room for I/O that the module uses not one, but rather *TWO* cable snakes.

    The flip side is it seems EF Note manufactures to high standards of quality; ostensibly, they offer some of the best built e-drum gear I've seen to date. That's all fine and good, but the design and targeting of their products remains an enigma to me. What is EF Note's value proposition? Seriously, I have no idea. What I do know is the next time I buy more e-drums, I will insist on proper acoustic sizes, so that rules out all of EF Note's current offerings.
    Last edited by TangTheHump; 12-16-20, 01:20 AM.

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  • Jeffo
    replied
    Atv is still hanging in over in Europe, right? Anyway, warning noted! This tariff from China destroyed Atv Usa for sure! I agree that there is huge money behind Alesis, Roland, and Yamaha. The biggest mystery to me in the Edrum Market is 2 Box. I dont know how they hang in. Anyway, good luck to Ef Note!



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  • bpaluzzi
    replied
    Anyone considering EFNote should be very cautious. ATV entered into a much more friendly competitive environment (i.e., before VAD was introduced), and they've still had to pull out of the US. The Chinese tariffs and COVID were the nails in the coffin, but they've been in trouble since long before that. Promised expansions never came, the sound store has been massively underdelivering, and in general they've never been able to move above the "tiny bit player" role.

    And I _love_ my aD5 / aDrums kit. I wish ATV could have succeeded, but they didn't. Remember that Yamaha, Roland, and Alesis are all MASSIVE multinational music instrument companies -- they have resources that just aren't possible for these new upstarts. There's a reason those three are still here, and every other challenger has risen and fallen.
    Last edited by bpaluzzi; 12-15-20, 12:50 PM.

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  • mkok
    replied
    Not bad as a cocktail kit

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  • Chris K
    replied
    Originally posted by molson View Post

    Agree. I attended the last Yamaha Zoom demo and was quite impressed. That little module has loads of features.

    I will admit that this demo is probably the best to date for EF Note. If they could have had some kind of sample import or sound expansion capability I'd be more interested, but as a closed system it's hard to get excited.
    For people only practice, and do not care about sample pool, no recording, it's nice kit thought, at least you can edit a bit, I think the lowest kit is around 2000USD.
    Last edited by Chris K; 12-14-20, 09:58 AM.

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  • molson
    replied
    Originally posted by Chris K View Post

    On a mix, roll, faster fill, faster speed, complex playing, these limitation will be obvious on audio. You cannot add more sound into the module, it's locked. Still prefer the dtx-pro.
    Agree. I attended the last Yamaha Zoom demo and was quite impressed. That little module has loads of features.

    I will admit that this demo is probably the best to date for EF Note. If they could have had some kind of sample import or sound expansion capability I'd be more interested, but as a closed system it's hard to get excited.

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