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Thoughts on switching from my modified TD-25KV to atv adrums artist standard?

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  • Thoughts on switching from my modified TD-25KV to atv adrums artist standard?

    Hey guys,

    So I wanted your thoughts on this potential "upgrade." So currently I have TD-25KV that I am mostly happy with. I've had it for two years. I upgraded the kick pad to the TD-30K's KD-120, and I'm using a PD-105BK for my snare pad instead of the PDX-100. I also added a Triggera D14 electronic china cymbal, and a Cy-5 roland cymbal for my splash.

    Here's a video of my current e-kit setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RACrMqcYpiI

    Now, the thing is, and this is mostly an impulsive/emotional feeling, I got to try out the ATV aDrums artist standard kit (this: https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...andard-pad-set) , and I fell immediately in love. I love the slick look, I loved how it sounded with the aDrums module (although the pads can be paired with a lot of stuff), and I loved how it looked and felt like an acoustic kit.

    Here's are some videos of ATV aDrums artist standard:
    1.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n00q00tTBo
    2.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK9QF3yf0Rk

    It's about $2,500 for the pads alone in the 4 piece setup (which is what I'm looking as I gig with a 4 piece acoustic kit). IDK what module I'd pair it with yet, but the ATV AD5 drum module goes for about an additional $1k, a pearl mimic pro goes for around $2k, etc. It's not totally out of my budget, but I don't know if it would be reckless given the opportunity cost of what I currently have and what else I could spend a few thousand bucks on.

    I could see myself at least $2k from selling my upgraded TD-25KV using the proper channels if all goes well, and I could re-use my Triggera D14 Cymbal on my new ATV kit. I still have my KD-9 kick pad that came with the kit that I never got around to selling too.

    I'm also gigging more with my band, where I play on an acoustic kit but sometimes my ekit in more low-volume scenarios. For that, I would like having the ATV aDrums Artist Standard as the transitioning from practicing on an ekit to gigging on an acoustic kit would be less drastic, and also, in the situations where I would have to gig with my e-kit, it would look more like an acoustic kit. It felt really good playing and similar to an acoustic kit.

    The only thing is that I feel like it would be a hassle selling my current frankenstein TD-25KV setup and then purchasing the ATV aDrums Artist Standard Kit, and I may need to shell out a few thousand bucks for the change for both the pads + new module, esp given that I spent nearly $3,000 for my current electronic drums setup. And much of the desire is based on the looks of the ATV aDrums and the feel, about how it looks electronic, and I'm mostly happy with my current setup.

    What are your thoughts? Do you think it would make more sense to stick with what I have? Or is this change not as reckless as it might seem?

    Thanks so much for your guidance!!

    Best,
    GoBears10
    Last edited by gobears10; 10-30-19, 02:08 PM.

  • #2
    I have the ATV kit plus Mimic. The Mimic module would be my top priority,but as long as you have the budget the ATV kit is amazing and feels a lot better than small Roland pads.

    Comment


    • #3
      In as much as I see the appeal of ATV aDrums and modules like Pearl Mimic Pro, if the TD-25KV works well enough for your needs, I say use it and save your money. Give e-drum technology a few more generations to mature, at which point I suspect there will be a wider variety of desirable options available.

      Last edited by TangTheHump; 10-30-19, 11:11 PM.

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      • #4
        There is a lot to be said on how an instrument makes you feel when you sit down and play it. If it inspires you and makes your playing better and more enjoyable then I say the change is justifiable. If you can afford it I say go for it.
        ATV aDrums, TD-50, aD5, Superior Drummer 3.0, Roland SPD-SX, Tama & DW Hardware.

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with Chance27 - if you can afford it, go for it. Edrums take years to evolve. Why wait for the next big thing?
          ATV aDrums, ATV aD5, eDRUMin, Presonus Quantum 2, SD3

          Comment


          • #6
            I tend to agree with the whole inspiration thing. If it inspires you to play and practice more, you’ll get more out of it in the long run...

            If I were looking to get a plug and play premium rig, then an ATV/Mimic combo would certainly be my first choice. As much as I appreciate my TD-30/SD3 combo, I certainly don’t consider it gig friendly. Pads are subjective though.

            If you want to save some cash, then you could always go A2E with a set of ready made triggers and some nice shells for less than the ATV pads. But you’ll still spend some cash on mesh heads, cables, etc so it isn’t all rock bottom savings unless you decide to get a little deeper into the DIY side of things. In any case, you could save a little money and still accomplish the same goal if playing a full size kit is really the end game.

            Just food for thought...

            Good luck with whatever direction you head for.
            Roland TD-50 & eDRUMin Modules | Superior Drummer 3 | Tama A2E w/ R-Drums Triggers | FIELD, ATV, & Roland Cymbals | ACD Unlimited Pedals | Tama & Gibraltar HW | RME HDSPe AIO Interface | Mackie ProFX10v3 Mixer | Simmons DA200S Monitor | V-MODA Crossfade M-100 OEMs & Westone UM Pro 50 IEMs

            Comment


            • #7
              The pads are not the most expensive part of the build, cymbals are

              But yeah, I found that the shells of the Artist set are a bit cheap, and no so good looking. Triggers are well build, but I personnaly prefer the dynamic of center mounted triggers.

              Converting an acoustic kit is coolest way for me also. With Mimic Pro (or ATV aD-5 if you want to save some money) module and ATV cymbals, you will have the holy graal of electronic drum, go for it if you have the money

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by DrumatiC View Post
                The pads are not the most expensive part of the build, cymbals are

                But yeah, I found that the shells of the Artist set are a bit cheap, and no so good looking. Triggers are well build, but I personaly prefer the dynamic of center mounted triggers.

                Converting an acoustic kit is coolest way for me also. With Mimic Pro (or ATV aD-5 if you want to save some money) module and ATV cymbals, you will have the holy graal of electronic drum, go for it if you have the money
                "The shells of the Artist a bit cheap?" OK, they're not heavy duty like my DW Classic series, but they are only really housing for the trigger setup, and don't need any more structure than that. They're as good or better than any edrum kit out there IMHO. Also, it's a fact that center-mounted triggers have hot spots which has a negative effect on dynamics. The ATVs Artist drums have three triggers and a better dynamic range IMHO particularly as they don't have center hot spots like Rolands do. I just want to be sure the OP gets both sets of opinions. I don't disrespect yours. I just see it very differently. Cheers.
                ATV aDrums & aD5, Pearl Mimic Pro & DIY, Agean R-series Silent Cymbals, Roland Handsonic HPD-20.

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                • #9
                  IMHO the ATV shells and hardware look and work great. What's not to love about Gadd-like piano black? The stands are heavy duty, stable, and easy to adjust.
                  ATV aDrums Artist expanded kit, Mimic Pro. Ludwig 1967 black oyster pearl five piece, Zildjian A custom crashes, A. Zildjian ride and hats.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Chance27 wrote:
                    There is a lot to be said on how an instrument makes you feel when you sit down and play it. If it inspires you and makes your playing better and more enjoyable, then I say the change is justifiable. If you can afford it, I say go for it.

                    Molson wrote:
                    I agree with Chance27 - if you can afford it, go for it. Edrums take years to evolve. Why wait for the next big thing?
                    Why wait? Because, presently there is very limited selection for next generation e-drums from mainstream suppliers. ATV aDrums along with Pearl Mimic Pro is one option, and that's about the only one I think most of us here recommend. The OP has an upgraded TD-25KV and remarks "I'm mostly happy with my current setup". That kit is quite playable and could meet the OP's needs for the foreseeable future. Given e-drum technology remains a long way from standardization and maturity, the longer one waits, the more better options become available. So my logic is, unless there is a specific use case that requires replacing the kit now, save the money and wait.

                    If the OP wants better playability immediately, one low cost option is to replace all his his drum pads with PDX-12 pads. The PDX-12 offers greater surface area (feeling more like acoustic drums) and has no hot spots due to its side-mounted trigger design. The cost of four PDX-12 pads is $880 USD, plus tax. That's a relatively inexpensive upgrade that provides massive improvements - larger, more drum-like playing surfaces and no hot spots!

                    Here are other options I considered.

                    Roland TD-50 kits? As much as I appreciate the additional modelling parameters and I/O, and the maturity of the product, none-the-less, the sounds are not there: the ride and crash cymbals are fantastic, the hi-hat sounds are workable but not great, and the snare and tom sounds are disappointing, having a very processed, synthetic nature and strange attack transients. Also, the TD-50 takes several steps backward from previous Roland flagship modules (no percussion sets and no MIDI In mapping, no sequencer, no pad patterns, and some other missing features). The 14 inch snare and 18 inch ride are proprietary, and only work with the TD-50 module. At this stage in the evolution of e-drums, I don't think it's wise to be locked into a Roland module and/or Roland only solution.

                    Pearl eMerge kits? My prediction is these will flop, just as ePro Live did. Why? The eMerge features proprietary pads and a proprietary module that cannot be used with gear from other manufacturers. Moreover, the offering is incongruent, with an odd mix of high-end pads and high-end price, along with a low-end module. If you could buy only the pads and swap in another module, that might be attractive. But as I understand it, the pads require the eMerge module and vice-versa, so I predict this offering will not do well. Also, the sound demos are okay, but the module does not impress the way Mimic Pro does, yet the kits are priced similarly to setups one would create with Mimic Pro (such as aDrums with Mimic).

                    GEWA G9 based kits? The G9 module looks great and has the best interface I've ever seen, but the sounds have yet to impress, despite many work in progress demos. Also, the cost of these kits is stratospheric. Like eMerge, in this price class, the G9 kits compete with Mimic Pro setups, and thus far Mimic Pro is considerably in the lead sonically.

                    2Box? Same as they ever were. Very limited distribution and similarly limited support, and their platform hasn't changed much since initial release. Yes, I know the newer modules have universal triggering, but the underlying architecture is pretty much identical to the first module. I'm a fan of the various 2Box modules (because they sound great), but due to limited distribution and competition they are getting harder and harder to recommend.

                    ATV? Here I'm talking about the modules only (aD5 and xD3). Though they sound great, I find these modules too limited in terms of features and I/O. And, as much as I try to ignore it, I still hear machine gunning in the ATV sounds. These are not the sort of module I recommend for mix and match kit building.

                    So, we end up back at ATV aDrums and Mimic Pro. This is seemingly a strong combination, but it's still not quite what I want (ultimately) from e-drums and it's an expensive option. I already have a TD-30KV kit and while far from ideal, it meets my immediate needs. Thus, my choice is to wait and not upgrade now. The OP may feel differently, but I provide my own logic for consideration.
                    Last edited by TangTheHump; 11-07-19, 12:20 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      DrumatiC wrote:
                      ...but I personnaly prefer the dynamic of center mounted triggers.

                      jpsquared482 wrote:
                      Also, it's a fact that center-mounted triggers have hot spots, which has a negative effect on dynamics. The ATV Artist drums have three triggers and a better dynamic range, IMHO, particularly as they don't have center hot spots like Rolands do.
                      I must side with jpsquared482 on this one. Singular, Roland-style, center-mounted triggers are becoming obsolete and have never worked well due to hot spots. It has been more than two decades since Roland introduced this design and the hot spots have never been solved. I assume the problem is inherent in the design itself because Roland themselves (seemingly) are moving away from this design.

                      What I know for certain is when you play a kit with side-mounted triggers or a hybrid trigger approach, the difference is immediately noticeable, due to the lack of hot spots. It's a huge and essential improvement that makes the drums playable. Contrast this with singular, center-mounted triggers, where I've never been able to dial out the hot spots - the dynamics are unreliable and all over the place, making the kit frustrating and unmusical to play at best.

                      Ultimately, I welcome ATV's decision not to use center-mounted triggers. ATV made an excellent design choice, fixing a critical problem that has plagued v-drum users (and v-drum style pad users) since the inception of v-drums.

                      Last edited by TangTheHump; 11-02-19, 01:47 PM.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by jpsquared482 View Post
                        "The shells of the Artist a bit cheap?" OK, they're not heavy duty like my DW Classic series, but they are only really housing for the trigger setup, and don't need any more structure than that. They're as good or better than any edrum kit out there IMHO. Also, it's a fact that center-mounted triggers have hot spots which has a negative effect on dynamics. The ATVs Artist drums have three triggers and a better dynamic range IMHO particularly as they don't have center hot spots like Rolands do. I just want to be sure the OP gets both sets of opinions. I don't disrespect yours. I just see it very differently. Cheers.
                        No problem, we can have different opinion

                        I took time to test the Artist's serie drum kit in my local store, and yes the shells are not so appealing to me. It could have a more highend finish for that price. Badge is very minimalist (a simple thick sticker), rims are entry level one, as such as screws and lugs. Indeed they are just receptacles for triggers, but at this price, I expected more enjoyable stuff.

                        In term of dynamic maybe the module was not so good tuned in term of trigger settings (and anyway I did not knew the module at this time), but I found the dynamic was a bit tight and overall the sound don't impress me.

                        With that being said, it was a test in a shop, with probably an incorrect setup and not enough time to really test it properly (with better headphone also).

                        In the end, I concluded "not good enough finish and feeling for the price". But discussing that right now make me realize that maybe I must retest it more properly (and probably buying one, with a mimic pro on top of that haha).

                        But I have to admit I have more pleasure with my A/E kit with well build center trigger. It is probably a personal thing, but with good tuning (high threshold), I really love the way center triggers behave. Great dynamic and sensibility, with a simple rule : the more you hit the center, the louder the sound is, and that's it : ) (yes there still is a little weird sound when you hit right on the top of the foam, but in a musical context, it is perfectly negligeable).

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                          What I know for certain is when you play a kit with side-mounted triggers or a hybrid trigger approach, the difference is immediately noticeable, due to the lack of hot spots. It's a huge and essential improvement that makes the drums playable. Contrast this with singular, center-mounted triggers, where I've never been able to dial out the hot spots - the dynamics are unreliable and all over the place, making the kit frustrating and unmusical to play at best.
                          I bought a padtech drop in trigger thinking that it will adress hot spotting issues ... and it does absolutly not. The hot spot is just on the side, not at the center. But as you must hit the closer of the sensor to have maximum dynamic, you end hitting the foam anyway, right ?. So you have the exact same issue that you have with center mounted one, but now you must hit on the side to achieve some dynamic ... not an improvement for me.

                          Again, I haven't been impressed by the ATV's 3 triggers snare in term of dynamic. But as some people here seem to be really happy with it, I think I have to test it again, and more properly this time.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            DrumatiC wrote:
                            ...I really love the way center triggers behave. Great dynamic and sensibility, with a simple rule: the more you hit the center, the louder the sound is, and that's it. (Yes, there still is a little weird sound when you hit right on the top of the foam, but in a musical context, it is perfectly negligible).
                            For me, the problem is (and always has been ever since playing the first V-Drums more than 20 years ago) that "little weird sound" in the center of the drum is totally unmusical and interferes with drumming and drumming technique. Play a single or double stroke roll anywhere in the mainstream area (center, just off center, or a little more off center). Notes jump out all over the place; it's almost impossible to get a clean representation of what was played. Moreover, random jumps in volume occur while doing very simple things, such as playing a backbeat.

                            One can avoid the mainstream area and this somewhat solves the problem. But e-drum pads are often smallish (for example, 12 inch snare drum) and thus, after the mainstream area is avoided, not much playing area remains. This very much limits dynamic range, because the more one moves outward on the head, the harder it is to set the head in motion, limiting amplitude of the output wave - the wave the drum module analyzes. I suspect this is even more problematic with smaller e-drum pads, like 6, 8, and 10.

                            In terms of drumming technique, there is good reason for landing harder strokes near center and lighter strokes outward, toward edges. Louder strokes require large muscle groups, large body mass, and large range of body movement. The center of a drum is perfect for this as it provides more give and less rebound, allowing the drum to accept more force to produce greater output amplitude while providing greater control. The quietest, fastest strokes are the opposite and require small muscle groups, the least amount of body mass, and small range of body movement. The edges of a drum are ideal for this as this is where maximum rebound occurs (assisting small movements) and where head motion is smallest (providing consistently limited amplitude and assisting with speed).

                            DrumatiC wrote:
                            I bought a padtech drop in trigger thinking that it will address hot spotting issues... and it does absolutely not. The hot spot is just on the side, not at the center. But as you must hit the closer of the sensor to have maximum dynamic, you end hitting the foam anyway, right? So you have the exact same issue that you have with center mounted one, but now you must hit on the side to achieve some dynamic... not an improvement for me.
                            I think we are each using the term "dynamic" differently. Reading your text, it seems you mean obtaining the absolutely loudest possible note. Myself, I mean the widest range of playable, reliable volume and textural levels available to the drummer, which includes soft, medium, and loud notes.

                            With an edge-mounted trigger, yes, if you hit directly over the trigger, there is a hot spot. But, if you place the trigger at the edge nearest the player (a spot almost impossible to hit), the result is reasonably linear response over the entire remainder of the head. This offers a considerably larger range of dynamics, because you can play center, slightly off center, more off center, and near the edges, and dynamics are reliable and linear. The widest possible volume range is obtained (from quiet to loud) and there are no hot spots. This, to me, is a massive improvement over center-mounted triggers.

                            Regarding the traditional hot spot with center-mounted triggers, I have spent many, many hours attempting to dial this out. I've read hundreds of articles and whitepapers, and used different approaches. I've tried trigger settings, limiters, single compressors, dual compressors, limiting MIDI velocity ranges, different instruments and sample libraries, increasing head tension (medium, medium-high, super-high), replacing foam cones, etc. Nothing solves the problem. And yes, I tried intentionally playing off center all the time, which is unacceptable for reasons given above and because it makes switching between acoustic and electronic drums ever more difficult.

                            My solution? Get rid of center-mounted triggers! ATV did this. Yamaha designed their pads so it's impossible to hit the trigger elements directly (i.e. no hot spots). Alesis took a hybrid approach. It's not quite clear what Pearl did with eMerge, but seemingly they are not using singular, center-mounted triggers. And Roland themselves are now promoting side-mounted triggers (TD-17 kits) and hybrid triggering approaches (TD-50 kits). Personally, I think singular, center-mounted triggers are obsolete and I would never want to go back to them... that is, unless some new recipe solves the hot spot problem.

                            Last edited by TangTheHump; 11-02-19, 05:35 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              That is a good argumentation, thank you I think I will give another shot to my Padtech trigger, just in case I missed something in term of dynamic (yes we speak of the same concept, but I took shortcuts considering only volume. For me is it the combination of volume and velocity capabilities).

                              I will make a DIY 3 cones triggers to test it at home (instead of spending 400$+ on an ATV snare), maybe it will change my mind.

                              I understand you are really annoyed by this weird sound, personaly I have taken the habit to hit just near the center (I have a 14" snare, so it has room), really it is quite acceptable for me. But maybe once used to 3 cones triggers, I will also not come back with center trigger.

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