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Roland KD-A22 vs Drum-tec kick drums: Feel & Noise?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by cseider View Post
    I am one of those players who are hitting the beater into the bassdrum and leave it there. The surface became really hot after a while, seems to be molten and had a bump after a few months.
    Do you happen to use a felt beater? Plastic is the way to go to prevent wear and tear on a mesh head.
    ATV aDrums & aD5, Pearl Mimic Pro & DIY, eDRUMin 10, Agean R-series Silent Cymbals, Roland Handsonic HPD-20.

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    • #17
      If you happen to have a DW pedal, while any pedal will work, place the tip of your foot just below the DW logo or equivalent spot on another pedal, about 3 inches from top, and practice not stuffing the beater by releasing the pressure a little on the pedal after impact and letting tit come back so that it is about 1/2 - 1 inch off the head. This will also give your acoustic kick a chance to resonate if you play acoustic. Stuffing the beater is an absolutely valid way of playing, many of the world's greatest drummers play this way, but as you can see it makes issues with e drums (including giving you occasional flams and the sensation like you're kicking a rock when using rubber and smaller mesh pads like a KD-120) and stops acoustic shells from performing their task of resonating. Gavin Harrison is a good guy to watch. They often show shots of his feet as well as his hands when he does an instructional video. Once you get it you can develop more speed and faster doubles as your pedal is always poised for an attack rather than stuck in your kick.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEWmzQ_fJmw

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      • #18
        Originally posted by jpsquared482 View Post

        Do you happen to use a felt beater? Plastic is the way to go to prevent wear and tear on a mesh head.
        Since he was talking about the KD-A22, I don't think that applies.

        Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post
        If you happen to have a DW pedal, while any pedal will work, place the tip of your foot just below the DW logo or equivalent spot on another pedal, about 3 inches from top, and practice not stuffing the beater by releasing the pressure a little on the pedal after impact and letting tit come back so that it is about 1/2 - 1 inch off the head. This will also give your acoustic kick a chance to resonate if you play acoustic. Stuffing the beater is an absolutely valid way of playing, many of the world's greatest drummers play this way, but as you can see it makes issues with e drums (including giving you occasional flams and the sensation like you're kicking a rock when using rubber and smaller mesh pads like a KD-120) and stops acoustic shells from performing their task of resonating. Gavin Harrison is a good guy to watch. They often show shots of his feet as well as his hands when he does an instructional video. Once you get it you can develop more speed and faster doubles as your pedal is always poised for an attack rather than stuck in your kick.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEWmzQ_fJmw
        I mean, burying the beater is an issue with both acoustic and e-drums, I just don't know how the noise would be affected with e-drums if you cut a hole like they normally do on the reso head. I do remember that Drum-tec claims that's not an issue with the RealFeel heads. Maybe the mesh head allows air to get released.

        Regarding the ATV kick, I found this video which is not very promising. I started to realize my so-far solution with the Roland noise-eaters might not be ideal with bigger kick drums. I really want to avoid having to make a tennis ball platform..
        Last edited by Excessium; 09-27-19, 03:40 AM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Excessium View Post

          Since he was talking about the KD-A22, I don't think that applies.
          Actually, the KD-A22 is basically a KD9 mounted in a head. The strike surface is a mesh-type of fabric that is less wear resistant than some mesh heads. Over time i have seen KD-9s wear out using felt; that's after a lot of use in a Guitar Center but worth considering. In any case, is there ever a reason not to use a plastic beater?

          Hope this helps.
          ATV aDrums & aD5, Pearl Mimic Pro & DIY, eDRUMin 10, Agean R-series Silent Cymbals, Roland Handsonic HPD-20.

          Comment


          • #20
            Originally posted by jpsquared482 View Post

            Actually, the KD-A22 is basically a KD9 mounted in a head. The strike surface is a mesh-type of fabric that is less wear resistant than some mesh heads. Over time i have seen KD-9s wear out using felt; that's after a lot of use in a Guitar Center but worth considering. In any case, is there ever a reason not to use a plastic beater?

            Hope this helps.
            I'm aware that it's a KD9 in disguise as I wrote on the original post. But I was under the impression that the material is not really mesh. In any case that was one of the main reasons for not considering the KD-A22 any more. When it wears out I'd have to replace the whole thing. Regarding your question it feels like the felt beater gives me slightly less rebound, but that might be my inexperienced foot.

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            • #21
              Excessium,

              Excessium wrote:
              ATV aDrum Bass aDrum issues
              Posted by Robert Lucas
              https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjMKW2g_FZc

              Regarding the ATV kick, I found this video which is not very promising. I started to realize my so-far solution with the Roland noise-eaters might not be ideal with bigger kick drums. I really want to avoid having to make a tennis ball platform.
              What that video shows is a problem common to small bass drums (18, 16, etc.)

              With larger diameter bass drums (20 and upward), the pedal attaches inside the hoop, so the chain and beater are closer to the head. This provides two benefits: (1) There is no worry about striking the hoop with the chain and pedal mechanism, because the entire pedal sits inside the hoop, and (2) the beater strikes the head at a reasonably flat angle, because the beater sits close and almost perfectly perpendicular to the head.

              With smaller diameter bass drums (18 and downward), pedals are often attached to a riser attached to the hoop or bolted to the shell, beneath the drum. This causes two problems: (1) The pedal mechanism may interfere with or strike the hoop, because the pedal now attaches outside the hoop, and (2) risers, when not implemented correctly, cause the pedal to sit further away from the head, which causes the beater to strike the at a significant angle. The net effect of the beater striking at a significant angle is a difference in feel and contact point (some do not like this different feel) and a reduction in rebound.

              There is a solution and many drum manufacturers do this: make a cutout in the hoop and integrate the riser into the drum, bolting the riser to the bottom of the shell and carefully positioning it such that the beater sits close to the head and the pedal mechanism fits through the cutout in the hoop.

              Myself, I do not like risers that attach to the hoop as shown in the video. The two problems shown (and that I further described) are the reason. If I'm going to use a riser with a small bass drum, it needs to be an integrated riser with a hoop cutout. Another option is attaching the pedal directly to the hoop and allowing the beater to strike high (which can affect feel and rebound, however). My preferred solution is an integrated riser and hoop cutout, as this approach makes the drum much easier, quicker, and more reliable to use.

              I'm surprised ATV did not address this issue, but some users prefer a virgin hoop whereas other users do not mind (and actually prefer) a hoop cutout. I suspect this is the reason drum manufacturers often leave this for the user to decide. It would be nice to have a factory installed hoop cutout and riser option, though; I always prefer this approach.
              Last edited by TangTheHump; 09-27-19, 05:37 PM.

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              • #22
                It would help my decision if I could see the internals of a drum-tec kick. If the "feel" is provided strictly from the real-feel head and the drum-tec patch (doubtful?), then I might as well buy an acoustic shell and mount something like an R-Drums trigger. But I'm wondering if they use some additional foam on their trigger mechanism around the beater height and right behind the head.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Excessium View Post
                  Regarding the ATV kick, I found this video which is not very promising.
                  You've got to be kidding me. This guy clearly has zero experience with drums or probably any sort of hardware including shelf brackets. This would explain why he doesn't seem to understand his kick comes with 2 front legs, elegant and substantial and extremely adjustable front legs that would lift the BD a foot of the floor if he needed it. Spikes to hold in place on a rug that poke through the rubber feet if needed. The teeth are a way of locking firmly in place the legs at solid increments that are then fine tuned with the adjustment at the bottom of the leg. The kick with the DW 9000 pedal along the 5000, easily the most popular pedals in the world and I would imagine almost any pedal, will stay perfectly flush with no issues and the beaters are the perfect distance from the kick. Here are some pictures. This kick feels every bit as punchy and responsive as my 69 Gretsch and triggers beautifully. And it looks beautiful to boot. I just like saying to boot. This guy looks like he dipped his ATV in a pool of acid. Don't use a patch enjoy the response of the kick unadulterated and buy a new head many years down the road.

                  flush floor.jpgleg_L.jpgLeg_R.jpgBeaters flush.jpg
                  Attached Files
                  Last edited by Howstamychi; 09-27-19, 08:29 PM.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Excessium View Post
                    I'm aware that it's a KD9 in disguise as I wrote on the original post. But I was under the impression that the material is not really mesh. In any case that was one of the main reasons for not considering the KD-A22 any more. When it wears out I'd have to replace the whole thing. Regarding your question it feels like the felt beater gives me slightly less rebound, but that might be my inexperienced foot.
                    It's not the same as a mesh head, but it is a type of fabric as I noted above. Being fabric, I believe it is just as susceptible to wear and tear as a mesh head would be. The same principle applies. Felt "grabs" the texture of the mesh or fabric and causes a lot of friction and causes premature wear. A plastic beater will not do this.
                    ATV aDrums & aD5, Pearl Mimic Pro & DIY, eDRUMin 10, Agean R-series Silent Cymbals, Roland Handsonic HPD-20.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Excessium,

                      Excessium wrote:
                      It would help my decision if I could see the internals of a Drum-tec kick. (snip)
                      Here you go. Pictures of ATV aDrums and Drum-tec Pro bass drum internals.

                      Sources:

                      ATV Construction Shell Hardware Review
                      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUaDZ0Zm_L8

                      Sticks DE Drum-tec Pro Padset Test
                      https://www.sticks.de/equipment/drum...adset-im-test/

                      Pictures attached below.

                      ATV aDrums Bass Drum Internals - Beater Side
                      atv1.jpg

                      ATV aDrums Bass Drum Internals - Trigger Closeup
                      atv2.jpg

                      ATV aDrums Bass Drum Internals - Front Side
                      atv3.jpg

                      ATV aDrums Bass Drum Internals - Jack Box
                      atv4.jpg

                      (Drum-tec Pro Bass Drum Internals pictures are in the next post.)
                      Last edited by TangTheHump; 09-27-19, 08:15 PM.

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                      • #26
                        (Drum-tec Pro Bass Drum Internals continued from above.)

                        Drum-tec Pro Bass Drum Internals - Beater Side
                        drumtec1.jpg

                        Drum-tec Pro Bass Drum Internals - Front Side
                        drumtec2.jpg
                        Last edited by TangTheHump; 09-27-19, 08:12 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post
                          His kick comes with 2 front legs, elegant and substantial and extremely adjustable front legs that would lift the BD a foot off the floor if he needed it. Spikes to hold in place on a rug that poke through the rubber feet if needed. The teeth are a way of locking firmly in place the legs at solid increments that are then fine tuned with the adjustment at the bottom of the leg.
                          I completely agree. The angle of kick, to get it square with the ground and to have the beater smack the head squarely, is simply adjusted by the length of the drum legs. Simple!

                          Also, I found it VERY strange that he had advice from multiple sources to use a drum riser with his 18" eKick. That makes no sense whatsoever. Sure, it's true for acoustic kicks. Peter Erskine is a big fan of an 18" with a riser to get more punch out if an 18" by allowing the beater to smack the head dead center. That applies to acoustic kicks, but is totally irrelevant for electronic kicks. In particular ,the ATV 18" kick was engineered to be used without a drum riser. The distance of the strike zone to the piezo/trigger was optimized without one. Sure, you CAN use a drum riser if you wish, but there is absolutely no benefit to triggering (and sound of course!). It only makes the kick inherently more prone to instability (minor but possible).

                          So, it's possible to adjust the legs accordingly with the use of a riser, but better yet, don't use one. The kick will be more stable and will trigger better because it is less prone to moving. Lifting it only makes it somewhat less stable, as a matter of physics.

                          Hope this helps.

                          JP
                          Last edited by jpsquared482; 09-27-19, 08:15 PM.
                          ATV aDrums & aD5, Pearl Mimic Pro & DIY, eDRUMin 10, Agean R-series Silent Cymbals, Roland Handsonic HPD-20.

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Howstamychi and jpsquared482,

                            Respectfully, I take exception to your comments about the chap in the ATV bass drum video. That drummer is spot on in his observations about 18 bass drums, risers, and pedal and beater issues with small bass drums. Having the beater hit dead center changes the feel of the bass drum, not only because the feel of the head and rebound are different, but also because the length of the beater shaft is different, all of which has significant affect on bass drum technique. Myself, whether with acoustic or mesh heads, I prefer the beater to hit flat and dead center. Also, as that chap shows, I dislike hoop-mounted risers because of the impact they have on beater angle.

                            The key problem that chap is having is the Gibraltar hoop-mounted riser he is using. I've used that riser myself and it is one of the worst risers I've ever used, specifically because of the various problems he notes. Trying to offset the beater angle problem with bass drum legs is a slipshod solution at best and the pedal feel is still off, even with maximum use of leg extension. Fair enough, the problem is not really the ATV bass drum; it's just a poorly designed third party riser that is causing all the issues.
                            Last edited by TangTheHump; 09-27-19, 08:41 PM.

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                              Trying to offset the beater angle problem with bass drum legs is a slipshod solution at best and the pedal feel is still off, even with maximum use of leg extension. Fair enough, the problem is not really the ATV bass drum; it's just a poorly designed third party riser that is causing all the issues.
                              Not slipshod at all unless, and I think you are, suggesting that if the pedal is badly mounted and the angle is way off then another solution is needed. But adjusting the front legs to a correctly mounted pedal and getting the kick the right height and flush to the floor is, you guessed it, the whole point of having adjustable front legs. Any deviance in the angle of the beater to the front of the head, off center alignment of the beater to center (allowing for double kick pedals), or uneven angle of kick to floor will have crap results. But this is drumming 101. Btw is "chap" a kind way of saying incompetent fellow?

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                              • #30
                                I went a much simpler rout but it works great for me. I took my 22 inch bass drum and stuffed it full with 4 pillows and put a roland 2 ply mesh head and a remo patch. For the trigger i use a roland rt-30 and i use the felt side of the beater which is why i have the remo patch.

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