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TD50 - Feel the Love?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Chris K View Post

    But in your case TD-50 is enough, with the style of music you play I saw some demo, you don't need more then 2-3 shots sample, hence why your merged snare sample from mimic worked for you with processing, for me for what I do it will never works for instance.
    I'm pretty new to the sampling game. So curious what you are doing where those samples would not work? The types of fills you play or you need loops? Thanks for explaining!

    TD50 Digital Pack, TD30 and TD9 Modules, custom made pads, Gen16 crashes, and hats plus a few other things that I'm not sure what to do with or why they're still in my kit. Bands: Espada http://www.musicaespada.com/ and JamCo https://www.facebook.com/JamcoEntertainment, https://www.jamcoband.com/

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    • #32
      Originally posted by BWaj View Post

      Only issue with trying in store is unless any of the modules have been properly tweaked, you'll probably be seriously underwhelmed. I thought both were very underwhelming right out of the box. But after working with each for a little bit, was much happier. All it takes is one bozo messing with the module before you try it out and it could sound terrible in store. I bought the Mimic at Sweetwater and they took it back 3 weeks later no charge at all. So there is always the option to do something like that.

      Prolem with being in Canada is having to pay taxes and import fess that cannot be re cooped. I could order it through my local L&M but there is no deals for us canucks it would be 3000 to 3200 with taxes. If for some reason I decided not to go with it your out 10% since it is a special order. Your right in a way whereas in the store would also not tell you how it would run with one's pads... I was really considering doing it for a while which is why if you look at my set up in showcase. You see a PD125X for FT and an extra PD105X mounted to the side. The 125 was slated to replace digital snare and was going to go with yammy atv or cy15 ride. Honestly when I play the 50's through my monitor they work for me. I really don't find anything wrong to go through all of that.
      Last edited by Bobvan; 03-21-18, 04:09 PM.
      Noble & Cooley a kit

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Alan VEX View Post

        I really wish the DS would work with the Mimic... and DR for that matter. These two pads make the 50. Pearl should highly consider reverse engineering these pads for Mimic v2. I know that's a long shot, but those two pads are the best thing to hit the market in years.
        I'd argue you won't need to reverse engineer the whole thing. This is USB, just write something that can understand the output on the USB bus and translate that to standard MIDI. Essentially have 3 usb ports off the back and have a simple translation piece that turns digital into essentially, midi and then allow those 3 ports to as midi sequencer on the mimic.

        Likely the DMCA covers the pads themselves, knowing Roland they probably put some stupid chip in there just for that reason. Even if you can work directly with the pads without a translation layer, DMCA will prevent you from productizing that. DIY groups could get away with this, but not Pearl. A translation layer though, that's fair game. *edit* and latency, but, it might work).
        TD-25 + TD-6v running - 2 x PD-100s updated with dual Piezo, 3 x PD-120, VH-11, Alesis 16" 3 zone Strike Ride, Alesis 14" Strike crash, 1 x CY-15r, 2 x CY-13r as crash, 1 x Cy-12. iconnectmidi2+ and 2 x iconnect mio for midi triggering.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by BWaj View Post

          I'm pretty new to the sampling game. So curious what you are doing where those samples would not work? The types of fills you play or you need loops? Thanks for explaining!
          This could be deep but, in shorts explanation since you use heavily processing sound for live for your band \ covers replica, heavily processed kits, tend to sound less detailed and large amount of sample like (200\300 etc per instruments) are not that needed, everything is much "louder on the same range" Studio now use layering single shots as well for particular style of music with heavily mixing. All Roland will sound nice for your purpose, you used Td-30 all the time before. You don't want that acoustic kit sound but heavily processed kits, (not raw sample or close to acoustic kit sound range). Also it's depend on style of music, jazz, funk, fusion, less processed sound etc. with faster tempo and fast fills etc, using 2\ 4 sample layers with these style could lead to unwanted sound and repetitive sound that people complained overs 15 years.

          I never used stock module sound, only VST with Roland module, mimic was my first module that I use the internal sound much with tweaking etc. But I know others people use default sound on others Roland module like Td-25, td-15 etc, which was fine for what they want, its enough for them.

          The hick for module is get the one that ticked all need, is the one, some will get alesis strike is enough.
          Last edited by Chris K; 03-21-18, 05:07 PM.

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          • #35
            BWaj,

            Following up on your question to Chris. I think what Chris is saying is the styles of music you're playing work well with the sounds you're using. Or rather, you're choosing sounds that fit the music you're playing, which makes sense. Also, you talked about changing the sound of the drums within a song. I'm assuming you're doing this to match specific studio effects of the original recordings. In this kind of scenario, the TD-50 likely works well. Contrast this with different requirements. For example, consider accompanying vocal jazz groups, acoustic singer songwriters, folk, acoustic jazz, and situations of this sort. To my ear, the sounds of a module like Mimic Pro are more suitable for these situations. I remember one Mimic Pro owner commenting that the Mimic library needed power toms. That may be true for certain musical situations, but those kinds of sounds are completely unneeded for other situations. So yeah, different choices for different musical situations.

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            • #36
              I am leaning toward the mimic pro but still on the fence. I just wanted to thank everyone for their help, much appreciated.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                BWaj,

                Following up on your question to Chris. I think what Chris is saying is the styles of music you're playing work well with the sounds you're using. Or rather, you're choosing sounds that fit the music you're playing, which makes sense. Also, you talked about changing the sound of the drums within a song. I'm assuming you're doing this to match specific studio effects of the original recordings. In this kind of scenario, the TD-50 likely works well. Contrast this with different requirements. For example, consider accompanying vocal jazz groups, acoustic singer songwriters, folk, acoustic jazz, and situations of this sort. To my ear, the sounds of a module like Mimic Pro are more suitable for these situations. I remember one Mimic Pro owner commenting that the Mimic library needed power toms. That may be true for certain musical situations, but those kinds of sounds are completely unneeded for other situations. So yeah, different choices for different musical situations.
                Yup, agree with both of you on this. I sat in with a poka band when I was still playing acoustics, my current sounds would not have worked for that, lol. On changing, we don't like dead air, so we do medleys or I keep a beat going while the singer talks, then the next song starts, etc. So if my aux pads were on tambourine and clave but I need cowbell and a sound effect on the next tune, I'm changing the patch while playing. Can't do that on the Mimic.

                Just different worlds and needs. The Mimic does not suit my needs at all as currently outfitted.
                TD50 Digital Pack, TD30 and TD9 Modules, custom made pads, Gen16 crashes, and hats plus a few other things that I'm not sure what to do with or why they're still in my kit. Bands: Espada http://www.musicaespada.com/ and JamCo https://www.facebook.com/JamcoEntertainment, https://www.jamcoband.com/

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                • #38
                  This would be a good use of a SPD-sx. Along with the Mimic.
                  "It makes sense if you dont think about it"

                  Mimic Pro, SPD-SX, 2-QSC K-10s, K-sub, Yamaha mixer, and a bunch of other expensive cool things!

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                  • #39
                    Problem with upgrade to versjon 1.06 to 1.07. Do like they say, but the messers are "No upgrade found" I hav try everything... Somebody help me?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Ivar Olsen View Post
                      Problem with upgrade to versjon 1.06 to 1.07. Do like they say, but the messers are "No upgrade found" I hav try everything... Somebody help me?
                      Nine times out of ten, it is simply improper file placement. Follow their instructions to the letter. If you do, it will work. You're just missing something simple.

                      I have no idea why you posted in this old topic.
                      Alan
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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                        Angeltech,

                        Another vote for Mimic Pro here. I've played the TD-50 quite a bit and (unfortunately) I've not been able to do the same with Mimic Pro yet. That said, there is no question in my mind that Mimic Pro is light years ahead of the TD-50 in terms of sounds, technical architecture, triggering flexibility, storage and expansion, and professional build quality. Mimic Pro's lack of machine gunning (on its own) puts this module way ahead of the TD-50. In terms of machine gunning, TD-50 is better than previous Roland modules, but Roland still has yet to produce a module that doesn't machine gun.
                        TD-50 doesn't machine gun that is just a load of parroted crap at this point.

                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e67ZD8G9-_s

                        The snare and ride play with more subtlety than anything else out there and as for the toms there is a hot spot on acoustic toms, the middle. It's where you want to hit and you do want it loud on toms, not pitter patter pansy around the edge; although Roland has positional sensing and articulate rim shots on toms should you want to have fun (not the Mimic where your toms have no rimshots and your crashes have no shank tip just an edge crash). The reason there even is a "hot spot" is because of the unparalleled positional sensing and rim technology in Roland pads. They have worked the hot spot out anyway with the TD-50 module's new parameters and if you have a basic knowledge of trigger settings you can dial in a PD-128 beautifully even on a TD-30 or 25.

                        Never rely on the factory settings. They are designed for the drooling salesman watching the average Joe who slams the crap out of the floor model before he reaches into his pocket and pulls out the cash. The TD-50 is a deep and great sounding module when you reach into it's architecture and now that the Vex and drum-tec guys have had time with it it there are some excellent and incredibly dynamic new kits to play. Layering in a one shot sample (optimize and edit that bad boy) underneath the complex built in editable multisampled sound and you get some great results.

                        At this point especially with a newer Mac TD-50 still out triggers anything on the market in it's native environment and also with any VST. SD3 was made to play with TD-50, positional sensing and all. I have at this point .97 ms latency in and out at 96/24 with a 64 buffer size. I can offset those .97 ms (93 samples) with the TD-50 which is a direct result of it's ability to connect to it's driver via USB to computer. By dialing into the TD-50 brain the negative sample rate I've got 0 latency. Unlike Mimic TD-50 is USB midi (yes 5-pin 1980 midi IS slower than midi over USB Virginia) and can be set as it's own audio interface.

                        A universal module accepting all pads like the Mimic has a scan time of 5-7 ms to accommodate it's ability to accept all sorts of outdated pads and can't compete with a 2 ms scan time module designed to integrate with it's own pads. ESPECIALLY the digital pads (which translate midi perfectly through the module as USB midi data to any VST and with advanced positional sensing to SD3). So who cares if you can't plug the digital pads into another module, why would you?

                        As Steven Slate said the Mimic is basically a computer running SSD5. Well that's a very small computer. With the TD-50 in Vendor mode and Midi/USB get a $149 SSD5 and you've got a faster and probably more updateable Mimic, and with SD3 on the market you are in another Universe. Sampled sounds sound more like real drums, we all get that by now. Mimic sounds great and that was cool back in 2016 (It's 2019 this month)when you never heard a sample in a box.

                        But that's where it stays, in the box. Without connectivity to your DAW via USB and with high latency scan times and 5 pin Atari midi I would advise with Mimic in the box is where you stay. I love Atari midi by the way.

                        Anyway at this point it looks like Pearl is spending it's money on e Merge and we will see how that goes. So far from watching videos it looks rather disappointing. I think it will be a while before TD-50 with SD3 gets any real competition and I do give the highest praise to Toontrack. You can piss and moan all you want about the original TD-50 sound bank but don't you ever negate it as the trigger from hell and the most playable kit on the market. V drums still has the edge on that with high praise for drum-tec pads which operate under the same principles as the Roland non digital pads. And don't underestimate the power, dynamics, playability and life span of the TD-50 drum synthesizer in direct violation of using a sample of some guy hitting a drum 127 times. They are two very different beasts.

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                        • #42
                          All very interesting Howstamychi.
                          ​​​​​​
                          Coming from a td20, I had to look at what was going to get the best response possible as well as the best sound for practicing and recording at home with minimal fuss and the Mimic far beat the td50 for me. I have tried with vst instruments and just don't ever get the feel I want from them where playing hardware (td20, td50, mimic) feels light years better to me, with round trip real world latency and not what is reported including all places along the path.

                          I do wish for a few things from the mimic, like positional sensing and bow/tip samples on crashes, but For ME, it is a fantastic system.

                          If using as a triggering midi brain, the td50 seems like overkill and I simply just don't really like the way it sounds as a module compared to the mimic, even with great players, optimal recordings, and library tweaks (like Rolf from drum-tec or Alan from vex).

                          That said, I think all of the brains out there have their place, purpose, and audience. All of this coming from a long time Roland fan.
                          My Updated Website: https://blades.technology

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post

                            At this point especially with a newer Mac TD-50 still out triggers anything on the market in it's native environment and also with any VST. SD3 was made to play with TD-50, positional sensing and all. I have at this point .97 ms latency in and out at 96/24 with a 64 buffer size. I can offset those .97 ms (93 samples) with the TD-50 which is a direct result of it's ability to connect to it's driver via USB to computer. By dialing into the TD-50 brain the negative sample rate I've got 0 latency. Unlike Mimic TD-50 is USB midi (yes 5-pin 1980 midi IS slower than midi over USB Virginia) and can be set as it's own audio interface.

                            A universal module accepting all pads like the Mimic has a scan time of 5-7 ms to accommodate it's ability to accept all sorts of outdated pads and can't compete with a 2 ms scan time module designed to integrate with it's own pads. ESPECIALLY the digital pads (which translate midi perfectly through the module as USB midi data to any VST and with advanced positional sensing to SD3). So who cares if you can't plug the digital pads into another module, why would you?

                            As Steven Slate said the Mimic is basically a computer running SSD5. Well that's a very small computer. With the TD-50 in Vendor mode and Midi/USB get a $149 SSD5 and you've got a faster and probably more updateable Mimic
                            Usual latency people have between 6ms and 10ms with VST and computer with any roland module, you need to add the latency from the module + all external factor, computer, board, sound cards forget about the number on your sound cards you see that worth nothing on final round trip total, from module triggers to audio output, not internal numbers.

                            -Module Latency number. (ex: Roland 3ms)
                            -Trigger settings: scan time usually adds 2-3 ms to the current module latency.
                            -MIDI transfer: a MIDI message takes about 1 ms.
                            -Audio buffer size: at 48 kHz a 64-frame buffer adds 1.33 ms.
                            -Any audio/effect processing in DAW or later by a PA add latency
                            -AD/DA conversion: <1 ms.

                            Where do you know 5 to 7 ms scan time? The scan time is set according to the pad construction quality, triggers add latency, some are 1.5ms, others, 2.4ms, acoustic triggers can get up to 3.5MS. MIMIC latency is 3ms same as Roland with scan set to 1. add detect time to 2ms to mimic you got 4MS total, if set to 3, you get 5ms total, it's been tested as fact.

                            All latency from DDRUMMER have been tested with scan time to the lowest, BUT some don't have the scan option to test on the module, it's been tested with their default scan time set already. You are getting mixed latency result with scan set to default and to lowest. On those who have been tested with the lowest setting, you will need to add the scan time according to the pad quality after, from any module out there. Yamaha don't have the scan time to change, it's been tested with default scan time only. Roland did nothing new on latency, it's all the same since td-30\td11\15\25 TD-50 is adding nothing new in this regard.



                            Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post
                            With the TD-50 in Vendor mode and Midi/USB get a $149 SSD5 and you've got a faster and probably more updateable Mimic
                            It does not works the same, not the same engine, many things are not available on the sdd5 which are in MIMIC, and either respond the same, MIMIC have built algo inside and many things the computer do not available, the hihat inside mimic is one example, it will never play and respond the same.


                            Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post
                            and with SD3 on the market you are in another Universe.
                            And the hihat do not perform well and either smooth, transition, extra tight to close to 1/4 open it's clunky, there is abrupt transition on all toontrack hihat in most case. That one of the reason people have always better performance inside module then midi and vst, the supports on VST is a big mess, people like compact and fast opening system without all harsh of million of setup, loading time, live is not even a discussion.


                            Originally posted by Howstamychi View Post
                            The TD-50 is a deep and great sounding module when you reach into it's architecture and now that the Vex and drum-tec guys have had time with it it there are some excellent and incredibly dynamic new kits to play. Layering in a one shot sample (optimize and edit that bad boy) underneath the complex built in editable multisampled sound and you get some great results.
                            Alan is doing this since early days, He is not sharing your same thought, but complete opposite, he worked deep on it, the ceiling is low with TD-50 compare to his previous predecessor flagship, he stated few time already on public, without sharing what he said to me in PM.
                            Last edited by Chris K; 12-12-18, 11:25 AM.

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                            • #44

                              Hmmm, Howstamychi that's a lot said.

                              I am relatively new to eDrumming at this level. I started playing them in church when the TD10 was released (with minor module tweaking) and I wasn't impressed. As eDrums evolved, I wanted something for my personal use. As I looked across the spectrum I was not impressed with the sounds and quality of what was available for my money. As the years rolled on and technology got better, I had the expectation of superior responsiveness and sounds from SOMEBODY in the eDrumming community. It still wasn't happening, at least to my ears. Then last year the promise of the TD50. Such excitement filled the air. Finally, I thought, an eKit that will sound and play like real drums.

                              So I had the opportunity to attend a highly publicized showcase for the TD50. The rep had all these modified samples to play during the demonstration. He put the TD50 through its paces, (positional sensing, attacks, internal, modified, and newly created samples, midi, digital functionality, and on and on with the features). When the 2hr demo was done, all I could say was WOW, you want $5-7K for this, you must be kidding! I figured, the company would put its best foot forward to promote and sell their stuff, right?

                              Back to my search and within a week or so, I joined this forum and heard more about MimicPro. It was on my radar, but I tend not to go for new releases of anything. Let someone else test it and vet it. Nearly every questioned I had about MimicPro was answered by someone on this forum. And I didn't and still do not understand a lot of the technical stuff, but enough was said, that I decided to take the chance.....

                              You are certainly entitled to your opinion, preferences, and loyalties. It makes for good competitiveness. But if you haven't done so, I'd suggest you obtain and "test" a MimicPro, with the same diligence you've done with the Roland. If you can, come back and tell us what you think.

                              I'll leave you with this. When was the last time you had a meaningful update to something from Roland which addressed user desires and concerns? Just sayin'....

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Six View Post
                                Hmmm, Howstamychi that's a lot said.

                                I am relatively new to eDrumming at this level. I started playing them in church when the TD10 was released (with minor module tweaking) and I wasn't impressed. As eDrums evolved, I wanted something for my personal use. As I looked across the spectrum I was not impressed with the sounds and quality of what was available for my money. As the years rolled on and technology got better, I had the expectation of superior responsiveness and sounds from SOMEBODY in the eDrumming community. It still wasn't happening, at least to my ears. Then last year the promise of the TD50. Such excitement filled the air. Finally, I thought, an eKit that will sound and play like real drums.

                                So I had the opportunity to attend a highly publicized showcase for the TD50. The rep had all these modified samples to play during the demonstration. He put the TD50 through its paces, (positional sensing, attacks, internal, modified, and newly created samples, midi, digital functionality, and on and on with the features). When the 2hr demo was done, all I could say was WOW, you want $5-7K for this, you must be kidding! I figured, the company would put its best foot forward to promote and sell their stuff, right?

                                Back to my search and within a week or so, I joined this forum and heard more about MimicPro. It was on my radar, but I tend not to go for new releases of anything. Let someone else test it and vet it. Nearly every questioned I had about MimicPro was answered by someone on this forum. And I didn't and still do not understand a lot of the technical stuff, but enough was said, that I decided to take the chance.....

                                You are certainly entitled to your opinion, preferences, and loyalties. It makes for good competitiveness. But if you haven't done so, I'd suggest you obtain and "test" a MimicPro, with the same diligence you've done with the Roland. If you can, come back and tell us what you think.
                                So you've formed a 100% conclusive opinion about the TD-50 vs the mimic by watching a Roland Rep roll through a sales presentation? Meaning, you don't have hands on with the TD-50? That's interesting. I could say the same thing, that the Mimic sucks based on my playing of it at my local Guitar center. However that wouldn't be honest as the Mimic I played was hooked up to those crappy Pearl Tru-Trac heads that you place over top of your acoustic pads. They sucked something awful. However, that doesn't speak to what the mimic may or may not be able to do and it was a 5 minute session so really - I know very little about how the Mimic actually might play on my full mesh setup.

                                Its just really kind of silly to form your conclusive opinion based on someone else's sales pitch. Have you played the TD50 digital snare? Have you played it side by side to a Mimic with a high end snare pad? Really, guys like VEX and the like are the only folks that can 'really' give an opinion as they've had hundreds of hours on both platforms.
                                I'll leave you with this. When was the last time you had a meaningful update to something from Roland which addressed user desires and concerns? Just sayin'....
                                1.07 was a patch to fix issues users found in the field. This very forum in fact had a long thread detailing the trigger drop out that initially Roland pushed back on until they could reproduce it in their labs. Roland listens, they just move slower than anyone would prefer and tend to under deliver (in our opinions at least). So the last time ROland listend to its users was relatively recent.

                                Further, the TD-17 shows them reversing stance on the mid range when compared to the TD-25. It looked like Roland was going to forcea certain usage style with their mid range and lower modules. Meaning, not allowing you to plug in anything, anywhere, and assign whatever sound you like. They took a lot of heat for this (search this forum for TD-25) and appear to have listened.

                                Not trying to fan boy for ROland but if we're interested in honest discussion, you do need to give credit where its due - imo.
                                TD-25 + TD-6v running - 2 x PD-100s updated with dual Piezo, 3 x PD-120, VH-11, Alesis 16" 3 zone Strike Ride, Alesis 14" Strike crash, 1 x CY-15r, 2 x CY-13r as crash, 1 x Cy-12. iconnectmidi2+ and 2 x iconnect mio for midi triggering.

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