Technique?

[Sky10]

Hello All,
I figured that the suggestion section would be the place to post this. I am curious if anyone else would be interested in a section dedicated just to technique. After all, the end results for playing these Vbeasts are to produce the most natural sound unlike the acoustic drum? How are you all approaching them with your technique? Hinger method, Moeller technique?? Volume up louder and hitting softer for better control? Vice versa? I am sure that, besides the electronic technicians that we must be to get the sound out of them in the first place, their are also many who are actually altering their playing techniques from how we attacked the acoustics, to get the same results. And then again, it might just be a moot point. An example for me is, when playing a groove where many ghost notes are involved I have had to be really be aware of the dynamics of the unaccented notes. When playing an acoustic kit, not only were these notes less volume but they sounded much different. On the Vs they might be unaccented but they give the effect of a fully resonated drum giving them a somewhat irritating sound. I understand the theory how the Vs were designed with positional sensing in mind but it still sounds pretty synthetic. Anyone getting a real natural sound out of there Vsnare while approaching it in a similar way as an acoustic? I'm not trying to reinvent the wheel and this whole subject may only apply to a fraction of the group but it has been something that keeps coming up in my approach to playing these beasts comfortably. And I would like to hear about other folks approach to them Not necessarily just settings on the brain. Thanks for listening..

Kyle

<FONT SIZE="3" FACE="helvetica, arial"><A HREF="http://www.civichelicopters.com/other">Big B Little B</a></FONT>

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[This message has been edited by Sky10 (edited October 05, 2001).]

[Blades]

Sky10,

Of course the approach is a bit different. I had a little period of "getting used to" the vdrums, but it really wasn't bad. Of course, at that point I was fairly used to electronics, as I had been using a set of Stinger pads with a d5 brain. poo poo in comparison, though the kick pad was pretty nice. One of the things that bugged me about them (aside from the fact that the D5, in my opinion, is much better for sequencing, but cannot deal with "real" playing very well) was the metal rims. Same as the Pintech in that regard...Why make a mesh headed drum for silent playing and feel if you are going to attach a noisy as hell metal rim to it? But I digress.

I approach the "ghost notes" in much the same way as I do on a real snare...play out near the edge and make them blend into almost sounding like there is some kind of hat thing going on, but not quite. Also, the kit makes a big difference, as some of the snares are obviously better suited to be a big *whack*. Also, the compressor needs to go. It's (tdw-1) much better than the original compressor, but I have the ability to compress after I record, so I do it that way. It's a lot easier to get the ghosts in there without them being "boosted" by the compressor. I haven't really spent a lot of time with it...it's fine for live stuff, but recording is a bit too delicate for it, I think.

Another thing that I find is a similar approach to playing acoustics properly translates really well to the toms. I hear a lot of guys saying that they have this machine-gun problem with toms. Granted, some of the sounds kind of do this more than others regardless of what you do, but some can be played well enough to be convincing. I've heard a lot of guys' v-drum demos where they are almost doing a "press roll" as they round the toms. I wouldn't do this on an acoustic kit, let alone E's. I will play with the edge for lighter hits and move towards the center of the drum for the solid stuff, just like I would on an acoustic kit, but always with controlled strokes, not presses, unless they are really called for. There are a few toms on the tdw-1 that are just SO GOOD...specifically, the Ballad toms (why this name?) and the Oldies toms (at least how I've got it set on my "Top" kit).

That's all for my rambling for now.

Check out my tune for a sample of my playing/recording, and let me know what you think...if you haven't already <g>.

redbrick www.mp3.com/Subtle_Nuance

[dr. kildrum]

Hinger? Moeller? Animal (from the Muppets), now he I emulate.

...After all, the end results for playing these Vbeasts are to produce the most natural sound...

I don't know if I agree. I went to monumental trouble and expense to trigger amazing high quality samples to get acoustic sounds, only to find that, duh...I already have a great acoustic kit, and e-drums can do so many other very cool things. Now don't get me wrong, I use mostly traditional drum sounding sounds still, but I don't spend time worrying about if they sound like mic'd Evans heads on a Tama Rockstar played deftly in a cave with nylon tipped Vic Firth sticks, etc, etc. I choose what sounds best in a context, many times it is a's.

But, that said, I have taken advantage of the e's in a few ways that are technique-related. I bought a super fast light double pedal that would never give near the punch I like for acoustics, but triggers the e-kick just amazingly. I have experimented with every head and head product I could get my hands on until I got the feel of the heads/response optimized. On that subject, there are three distinct feels and sets of head configurations on my kit, the kick, the snare, and everything else. I would suggest that due to drum sizes and necessary tunings, a properly tuned acoustic kit will almost always feel slightly different for every drum. (i.e. your smallest tom will almost always feel tighter and play differently than your largest.) I "tuned" my e's to approximate this phenomenon when I first got them. No more. All toms are the same. It makes for very consistent play between those drums, and the snare, while different, is the only exception (besides the kick), but differs in a naturally and expected (feeling) way.

I've also placed the (e) drums in a way that would not be easy or possible with the acoustic counterparts. It makes for very nimble play, so why not?

There are a few other subtle things, but those are some basic thoughts. BTW, I think the feel of my kit is incredible. I never thought I would get it to come close to where it is when I was demoing all the kits before buying. I've never played another e-kit anything like it. While there are a few nuance a-riffs that are hard or impossible to carry over sometimes, for every one, there are many e-things that aren't part of the a-"vocabulary".

It's not apple and oranges, but it is Granny Smith apples and Delicious apples...(if you know what I'm trying to say).

[szvook]

Originally posted by dr. kildrum:
I "tuned" my e's to approximate this phenomenon when I first got them. No more. All toms are the same. It makes for very consistent play between those drums, and the snare, while different, is the only exception (besides the kick), but differs in a naturally and expected (feeling) way.

[hmasing]

Originally posted by Sky10:
How are you all approaching them with your technique? Hinger method, Moeller technique??

Playing on PD-7's and PD-9's if I didn't use Moeller, my wrists would be DEAD!

Volume up louder and hitting softer for better control? Vice versa?

Here's one thing I like - I play MANY small venues - coffee shops, 100-person accoustic festivals. I also play 5000 person folk festivals and other larger venues. Playing on my A's was great for the large venues, but TERRIBLE for the small ones. With the V's, I play exactly the same way for both venues, and let my sound man do the work. I do use accoutic hats (until I get the V-Cymbals...), so I often use Hot Rods as my sticks to keep the cymbal noise down. I also use some accoustic cymbals for swells and splashes, and again the hot rods work great. BUT! I still get the 'full' drum sound from my snare and toms.

An example for me is, when playing a groove where many ghost notes are involved I have had to be really be aware of the dynamics of the unaccented notes. When playing an acoustic kit, not only were these notes less volume but they sounded much different. On the Vs they might be unaccented but they give the effect of a fully resonated drum giving them a somewhat irritating sound.

I disagree. My main adjustment to my playing style is that when I do ghost strokes on the snare, I move the stick to the edge so I get a softer, more resonant sound. I do it completely unconsciously now, and don't really know when I started, but it works. My bandmates are constantly amazed by the realism of the sounds I can pull out of the V's. And then I blow them away with completely electronic sounds on some of our songs during bridges, accents, and so on.

In fact, operating the TD-10 while playing has become second nature. I know the numbers of my kits, and have them positioned in orders that I can very quickly (while playing!) rotate between them. I don't use a foot pedal for this, since I never really picked one up... But, on one song, for example, there is a bridge of 4 bars where the guitarist and bassist play overtones and I am doing intricate patterns on ethnic drums (pot drum kit, specifically, with tweaks) I then have a 2-count to get back to the normal kit for the song. Don't even think about it any more...

Anyone getting a real natural sound out of there Vsnare while approaching it in a similar way as an acoustic?

See above!

Great subject! :-)

- Hans

[gingerbaker]

What's amazing about the V's is that you can continually discover better sounds, set-ups, and opportunities to be creative.

After picking up on a kind poster's tip on the crash rides available on the TDW-1, I've been all over them, adding them to every kit I use.

(Just had an idea while typing - I'm going to set up a new kit of just crash rides and ride edge [great samples!!] sounds for doing cymbal swells, and then chain it to other kits - not bad for 2:00 in the morning!)

I love being able to arrange the whole kit so that everything is within very easy reach. None of my cymbals is more than a foot and a half higher than my toms, and nothing requires a fully extended arm.

Love the rebound off the toms. Doubles and even triples are so, so easy compared to acoustics.

Actually, perhaps too easy. Lots of my favorite things are now based on these rebound techniques - I'm afraid to try to play acoustics again because it'll never fly on mylar!

Finally, I'm a really big advocate now for the "Turn the volume up and your touch down" school, since I got the TDW-1.

Playing through a JBL EON G2 and a Mackie subwoofer, I swear to god the dynamic range is BETTER than an acoustic kit.

Once your head tension is good, and the positional sensing parameters are dialed in, and you have the TDW-1, there is a lot of nuance and a huge amount of volume dynamics you can now use with a high volume setting and a soft touch.

Oh yeah - I agree about the ghost notes - much better to play them out toward the rim.

Ahhh.... time for bed. Tomorrows....

[Dan the Speakerman]

Newbie fact-finding here

What are Moeller and Hinger techniques (is it matched and traditional?)

Thanks, and I'm embarrassed to have to ask, but this is how I learn

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www.mp3.com/entrylevel

[dr. kildrum]

Originally posted by Dan the Speakerman:
What are Moeller and Hinger techniques (is it matched and traditional?)

No, much more to it than that.

Fred D. Hinger:
-Started professional career with the Rochester Philharmonic Orchestra.
-Studied with William Street at Eastman.
-Graduated with degree in Education and percussion.
-1942-1948 was xylophone soloist and percussionist with the Navy band in Washington D.C.
-Joined the Philadelphia Orchestra in 1948 as principal percussionist (replaced Benjamin Podemski).
-Moved to principal timpani position from 1951-1967.
-Taught at Curtis during his years with Philadelphia.
-Later moved to Principal timpanist with Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and taught at Yale and Manhattan School of Music.
-Taught Kalman Cherry, who is the timpanist with the Dallas Symphony.
-Also taught David Grosse.

Sanford "Gus" Moeller:
-Too much to list, international artist, lecturer, clinician.
-Don't bother reading his book, he even admits it isn't what he is about or meant.
-Taught Jim Chapin. Read anything by Chapin.

These are serious cats that you have to study when getting a degree in percussion, their respective techniques cannot be easily paraphrased IMO and overlap some. Do a search on the net and you will find tons of material. Also, Chapin has a book called Technique for the Modern Drummer that is a must. He used to carry around sticks and a practice pad to prove that some of the excercises could actually be played at the recommended tempos.

[Dan the Speakerman]

Great, Dr. K! Thanks, I will look into that book!

Dan

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www.mp3.com/entrylevel

[Sky10]

http://www.ballisticdrums.com/index.htm.

[Boingo]

Originally posted by Sky10:
Anyone here fortunate enough to study with Freddy Gruber?

Ummm, jrcel... didn't your studies include him?

[hmasing]

Originally posted by Sky10:
Anyone here fortunate enough to study with Freddy Gruber?

Wasn't he that guy in all the horror movies?

&gt;ducking&lt;

- Hans


[This message has been edited by hmasing (edited October 06, 2001).]

[Sky10]

Uhh ya, Thats the one.
Another beer?

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[hmasing]

Originally posted by Sky10:
Uhh ya, Thats the one.
Another beer?

HA! My &gt;ducking&lt; comment wasn't included, since I had originally put it in &lt;ducking&gt; format, so your browser ignored it. Freddy Gruber. HA! I kill myself...

- Hans

[@oM]

Could be me, but those mp3's of that 'Ballistic bass drum' sound like ****. Fast, but played bad if you ask me.