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Roland TD-50 -vs- Pearl Mimic -vs- Alesis Strike -vs- ATV aD5

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  • Originally posted by Renegator View Post
    I think that our response to sound is very subjective and can change from day-to-day. So I am cautious about making any judgements irrevocably. I was searching on information about the hot spot a few months ago, and I found a post by jammin777 when he first got his TD30. He was saying how fantastic the TD 30 was. I find my response to my drums changes from day to day. Some of that may be physiological, but I think some of it is psychological. Sometimes our expectations can lead us to hear or not hear certain aspects of the sound. The bottom line for me is that my appreciation of sound changes from day to day. I have been listening more carefully to commercially produced music. I noticed that on a lot of songs that I like, the drums don't sound as full as i want when i am playing an electronic kit. But it never bothered me when I was just enjoying the music that I was listening to.
    I agree with these comments. IMO, because the Mimic editor will allow us to completely change the onboard sounds, it is a great choice if your tastes change over time. I myself often get quickly bored with stock sounds from major manufacturers. Sometimes that's because the sounds are prone to becoming "stale", and sometimes its my tastes change. The MP will allow me to adapt it to my changing needs. That's a major improvement.
    Pearl Mimic Pro. Also, TD-11 triggering VSTs

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    • The Mimic Pro is a very different starting point for a module. I found that Roland modules were fun to play but awful to listen to on recordings. It was shocking to me when I would hear them back. I would find them useful to layer under VST sounds to fatten them up.

      The Mimic Pro sounds just like I expect when I hear it back. It is as simple as the number of samples creating this result. It has 40 gigs compressed to 20. I think the TD50 may have half a gig but we don't know. My AD5 floor tom was 10 mb and it had less machine gunning than my TD 50 Jarrah 16 floor tom. I would guess the Jarrah 16 is 5 mb.

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      • People need to understand what means complete NEW sound low to high velocity, with his true sound, vs edited sound, you can't get any new edited sound compare to totally new recorded studio sound, as example what VST library with his true sonic sound compare to vdrum\ editing sound or any others module edited, while MIMIC have this ability, the editing for Td-50\TD-30\Td-20\Td10 etc. Are still the same sound at base and very noticeable to ears, not new, only improve the base at most with eq\filter\reverb. The importation of one wav merged on any module is limited, it create machine gun if you don't make the fading approach, which 80% of the base sound are the same from the module. If someone tell, you can get all sound possible with vdrum series, there was no need to change from TD-30 with a TM-2 or sample merged with another device, and no need to cry of low drum acoustic pcm sound in td-50. Same for Percussion sound, they are mostly all 1\2 shots sample on all Roland module and most module. Big difference New recorded sound instruments and edited sound, same as someone use 2box vs roland module or others module, the sound are totally different and easily noticeable where the sound source came from.
        Last edited by Chris K; 08-12-17, 01:33 PM.
        [www.mimicpro.com ][ www.dwdrums.com ] [www.zildjian.com]

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        • I admire your response CobaltSky, I'd like to further my opinions on a few points.

          The edibility argument is hands-down in Roland's courtyard. I've said before that Roland's engineers have evolved their DSP processes into a dark art, so much so, that it's become the bread and butter on the vdrums line up imo. Figures nobody could / has been able to challenge them at this for decades, until somebody came along from the opposite spectrum; I called this the brute force approach - large pools of samples and computing resources which reigned supreme with the VST world. The numbers, the megabytes, the facts don't lie.

          Worth mentioning, I don't put much importance of the sample import feature of the TD50 as anything significant. I paid great attention to forum users reports on this subject, and most where mixing low level, to avoid machine gunning, and were mostly used to enhance the existing sonic signature or add percussion. That puts a nail in this feature for me as I don't like Roland's sonic signature.

          Do I have enough information to decide that? Well I used this incredible resource setup by a user here. With all the editing functionally of the TD-50, it's clear to me it just isn't enough to alter this sonic signature in a way that pleases me, sorry Roland.

          I not going to ignore the elephant in the room; I can't change the samples on the TD-50. But just on balance, let's say I dislike samples on the Mimic Pro as well; the verdict still favours the Mimic Pro than the TD-50 as of 2017, with future expansions in the works, which will change samples. Then there's the instrument editor, which thinking about; expands control way outside DSP processes on the module, if we include non-real time baked in DSPs as an alternative to Roland's approach - optional, not fair to compare, but important for future prospects, and I'm all about the prospects of open architecture. 2Box would have been my choice before a TD-15 back in the day.

          Not mentioned at all are ATV, which I think are doing wonders. A real competitor to Roland in the midrange sector once the aDrums are out. They will be attacking the triggers, and have a sound store to replace samples. Both ATV and Pearl are going for mutual compatibility and future expansion whereas Roland departs with digital triggers. It's evident an interesting dynamic is developing.
          Last edited by Kabonfaiba; 08-12-17, 11:05 AM.
          ♦ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ♦ MegaDRUM + Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ♦ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ♦ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring
          Community Drum Module Document
          PA Specifications (wip)

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          • Originally posted by CobaltSky View Post
            positional sensing

            This will be on the past, after a bit of time now, all patents is getting expired one after one, same as the mesh\ cone system trigger are expired now, all would have these ability with update if the module is enough powerful and capable of course, I would make it much much more realistic then what actually Roland does, then PS will be way much more powerful feature.
            Last edited by Chris K; 08-12-17, 11:36 AM.
            [www.mimicpro.com ][ www.dwdrums.com ] [www.zildjian.com]

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Kabonfaiba View Post
              ...Do I have enough information to decide that? Well I used this incredible resource setup by a user here. With all the editing functionally of the TD-50, it's clear to me it just isn't enough to alter this sonic signature in a way that pleases me, sorry Roland.
              It's fair enough if you've concluded that some aspect of the Roland sound are not to your taste. That's your call.

              I will say, however, that the V-Ex kits clearly demonstrate that the sound of the modules can be altered massively - to the point where someone familiar with the stock kits would likely not even recognise it as the same module. And again, that even before blending user samples... The sounds it ships with are a starting point, nothing more.

              Originally posted by Kabonfaiba View Post
              Both ATV and Pearl are going for mutual compatibility and future expansion whereas Roland departs with digital triggers. It's evident an interesting dynamic is developing.
              I agree it is interesting, and changes things up somewhat.

              I assume that other vendors will look to ways to amp up their technologies to get closer to the level of the new Roland digital triggers - which are a totally different experience to play, like night and day. Hard to believe the amount of nuance and subtlety/expression they add (didn't notice it was missing until I spent some time with the new triggers). Really looking forward to a digital HH from Roland at some point, which will take things a step further again...
              TD-50KV extended kit with KD-A22 kick, DW pedals/stands. SPD-30 and SPD-SX. TD-30 for additional triggers & layering. Muse Receptor 2+ Pro w/ SD v2.4.4.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chris K View Post
                This will be on the past, after a bit of time now, all patents is getting expired one after one, same as the mesh\ cone system trigger are expired now, all would have these ability with update if the module is enough powerful and capable of course, I would make it much much more realistic then what actually Roland does, then PS will be way much more powerful feature.
                It will a great thing to see more platforms supporting PS functionality, and I'm sure you're right that VSTs will get there at some point.

                For a pure sample-based (VST) approach it would multiply the number of samples quite a bit, so more storage and memory would be required (and it would require a fair bit more work to generate the libraries). Not to mention the additional software/control elements.

                Frankly, I would love it if SD were to do something with that - but I guess I'm not holding my breath... ; )
                TD-50KV extended kit with KD-A22 kick, DW pedals/stands. SPD-30 and SPD-SX. TD-30 for additional triggers & layering. Muse Receptor 2+ Pro w/ SD v2.4.4.

                Comment


                • As someone who has talked a fair bit about how much I have enjoyed the TD 50, I have to admit that I am looking forward to getting a mimic Pro. The thing holding me back at this time is that there are questions regarding quality control at the factory and potential issues with the packaging. And of course availability is minimal. Once the next round of users here get their mimic pros and we get some more feedback on the mimic, there's a good chance I will get one. If the most enthusiastic comments turn out to be true for everyone, I am sure it will be a lot of fun to have that module. I forget who posted it, but there was a recording of the high hat that sounded fantastic
                  . . . . . . . . . .
                  V stage with TD20 and TDW-20, pd-80s, pd-7s, pd-125, vh-12, cy-12rc, dB 405 L and Yorkville LS 700p
                  Core2duo in a Cube with 2 gig of RAM and 2 HDDs, Sonar Producer 6, DFHS Custom and Vintage, and RME Multiface II

                  "Make me an instrument of your peace..."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by CobaltSky View Post

                    I will say, however, that the V-Ex kits clearly demonstrate that the sound of the modules can be altered massively - to the point where someone familiar with the stock kits would likely not even recognise it as the same module. And again, that even before blending user samples... The sounds it ships with are a starting point, nothing more.
                    I'm glad you said this. I grow tired of seeing all the comparison videos showing only default kits. The true comparison is the flexibility of each module. The kits I have been working on the past month for Studio X greatly surpass all three examples of default kits in the comparison video. (I'm not knocking any modules... I think the Mimic and 50 are both amazing)

                    Out of the box, the 50 sucks. I admit that whole-hardheartedly. However, where the 50 lacks, it can be made up in modeling and processing. People just don't realize it, because THAT'S not being shown. And if I can drum up the money (see what I did there?) to get some YT gear, I swear I'm going to do my own videos that will change many minds about the true big picture.

                    I continue to be amazed as I work on improving the sounds through careful processing and modeling. I have reached a point where kits are sitting much more tightly in with professional mixes, are far more bold and realistic, and blend/cut so well that they actually sound like a real kit and part of the original mix.

                    Regardless, the point is the true comparison of these modules is about the flexibility of editing for the end user. Who cares what it sounds like out of the box, if it can/cannot be changed/improved drastically. Personally, I cannot stand the idea of not being able to control precise tuning and additional modeling/major editing with typical samples. This is one area where Roland truly shines, in my opinion.

                    Before someone rebuttals with the VST vs Roland stuff; the bottom line for me is that when the modeling and processing are done properly, you simply cannot distinguish enough of a difference in a live gig for it to matter. (well, maybe if you're playing some soft jazz) I'd rather have the flexibility and less headache in the end. This is just my opinion from a 40+ year old professional musician.
                    Alan
                    _________________________________________
                    visit my website: http://www.vexpressionsltd.com/

                    Comment


                    • The video from Drum tec is misleading, The fact is Drum tec only had mimic for a very shorts time, with v1.0, it's not their own, Alesis had better ghost notes then drum tec show on another video, while mimic you could heard way better hihat sound and articulation sound with another video. Alesis and Mimic show 15% of their instruments list, (not talking editing\ importing multilayered sound from Alesis\ mimic) I heard most of Td-50 snare\toms\bass drum wav pcm set on drum tec video, excluding cymbal\percussion\Fx list, (td 50 have 4 acoustic sample kit is easy to remember)

                      The reality is, most people play at home and record. The editing should be only necessary at the extend like in studio, if the base sound are there, after you are getting to a point of getting to room\reverb\processing\tuning sound at most, many people having difficult spending time on these and can get confused easily.

                      Modeling are way more complicated and the chance to degrade sound are in higher %. Having new library pcm raw sound and it's unique sound\nuance\ sample pool\ tone\ clarity, you can't have this with modeling vs new instruments recorded like Toontrack\BFD\AD\SSD library etc. it's Impossible, to have these true base sound, it's not new raw sample added. Same things with AD5 sound library and vdrums, this will never sound like it, the basic sound foundation are recording.

                      Technique from VST library in early 2000 still ahead on sound compare to most module in 20 years after, I can close my eyes and can't see difference it's electronic, in fact as stated from Allan J from digital magazine interview and others owner company of VST, they are used in studio recording replacing real acoustic drums from real popular band playing it with midi or without, no one can see difference.

                      Each vdrum have their own sound, because of their own pcm sound list, but you are reaching each time a stalling flexibility on the sound, they cannot get to a higher point of new PCM wav sound outside processing\reverb type or most would stuck with the same module for life time, compare to adding totally new instruments sound with his own particular tone and velocity nuance which make the real difference on each drumkit.
                      Last edited by Chris K; 08-13-17, 05:32 AM.
                      [www.mimicpro.com ][ www.dwdrums.com ] [www.zildjian.com]

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by CobaltSky View Post

                        It will a great thing to see more platforms supporting PS functionality, and I'm sure you're right that VSTs will get there at some point.

                        For a pure sample-based (VST) approach it would multiply the number of samples quite a bit, so more storage and memory would be required (and it would require a fair bit more work to generate the libraries). Not to mention the additional software/control elements.

                        Frankly, I would love it if SD were to do something with that - but I guess I'm not holding my breath... ; )
                        VST's already have positional detection. In my experience,it is more realistic than the sound from a Roland module. It would be good if someone could upload some snare playing on a TD50 with a midi file. I could run it through a number of VST libraries to compare.

                        Some of the Roland reps have claimed all sorts of things going on when playing the TD50 snare. I don't find those things are audible.The positional sensing sounds very obvious to me that it is 2 sounds on a Roland snare,not a multitude of sounds. I posted a video of a TD50 snare vs BFD Modern Retro a while ago and the BFD one performed better[or sounded more realistic] in my opinion.Unfortunately I did not enable the CC for positional detection in BFD for this video:

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                        • In this video I was demonstrating the lack of sample layers in the TD50 hi hat,hoping Roland would update the number of samples. I hear 1 quiet and 1 loud sample for each zone [EG: bow extra tight 2 samples,bow closed 2 samples etc]. Since they said they would not do sound updates,I doubt this will change. That is the first thing I checked on the Mimic Pro. The Mimic was excellent at this and very realistic. The AD5 was pretty good and I would guess the new hi hats are even better.
                          Last edited by Peter Warren; 08-12-17, 07:45 PM.

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                          • nice video.
                            [www.mimicpro.com ][ www.dwdrums.com ] [www.zildjian.com]

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Peter Warren View Post
                              In this video I was demonstrating the lack of samples in the TD50 hi hat,hoping Roland would update the number of samples. I hear 1 quiet and 1 loud sample for each zone [EG: bow extra tight 2 samples,bow closed 2 samples etc]. Since they said they would not do sound updates,I doubt this will change. That is the first thing I checked on the Mimic Pro. The Mimic was excellent at this and very realistic. The AD5 was pretty good and I would guess the new hi hats are even better.
                              Agreed that there is a lack of samples. I griped about that publicly myself. I feel that way about the all the groups as well. It should have matched the offering of at least the 20X, if they did not plan to expand the internals.

                              However (back to the HHs), after a few months of vast experimentation, I have really begun to make up for it. I feel I now have several styles of HHs. I proved this to myself when I was able to create a very clean and realistic Paiste Signature model that rivals the real thing. (for an e-kit, that is lol) It just takes a lot of time to dial it all in. The main thing is I had to really work deep in layering, EQ and the actual trigger settings.
                              Alan
                              _________________________________________
                              visit my website: http://www.vexpressionsltd.com/

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Alan VEX View Post

                                Agreed that there is a lack of samples. I griped about that publicly myself. I feel that way about the all the groups as well. It should have matched the offering of at least the 20X, if they did not plan to expand the internals.

                                However (back to the HHs), after a few months of vast experimentation, I have really begun to make up for it. I feel I now have several styles of HHs. I proved this to myself when I was able to create a very clean and realistic Paiste Signature model that rivals the real thing. (for an e-kit, that is lol) It just takes a lot of time to dial it all in. The main thing is I had to really work deep in layering, EQ and the actual trigger settings.
                                I edited the post because I meant sample layers. That is great news about the Paiste signature. Which one? I have always been a big fan of the dark crisp.

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