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  • Every single video I have seen exhibits the same flaws.... Dynamics are terrible.. uncontrolled loud cymbal and hi hats that seem very hot and explosive when hit. Just doesnt seem fun to play at all...........
    Roland TD-12 Ludwig A2E 5pc kit, VH-11
    Studio Drummer, Abbey Road 60's 70's 80's, AD2, SSD4, SD3
    Komplete Audio 6, JBL Eon 515XT, Mackie FX12, DAW Studio One 3

    Comment


    • This module sounds way better than the Roland td-30 imo.
      I'm only going by you tube demos but I can hear machine gunning in those td 30 demos just as much ,if not more.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQEMAt0nEVE
      The you tube above sounds bloody awful.
      Machine gunning galore.

      Cymbals are superb on the ATV but you don't get much for your money being only 5 kits.

      See what Alesis have got in store with the Strike Pro.

      Roland need to lift their game,terrible sound for the price you pay.
      Last edited by smasha; 04-02-16, 12:08 PM.

      Comment


      • Good point. That video seems like none of those drummers have played an electronic kit since the 80s or ever. The sounds are much worse than the AD5. I wonder what the problem is with the AD5? Is it possible there is not enough polyphony to add more velocity layers? If it is just loading times,I would rather use high quality MP3 files with 5 to 10 times the velocity layers.

        Comment


        • I think the trouble with edrums is not how many samples used but how many velocity levels are used.
          Midi is 0-128 right?
          I think that is the problem.
          If you had just one sample loaded on a pad but that sample had 1000 velocity layers ,then the machine gun effect would be greatly decreased.
          That is the real problem,the amount of velocity resolution.
          You could mask that by using alot of contacts on the pad so the sound changes a tiny bit if you moved your stick just a little bit on the pad.
          That is the number one reason why edrums lose alot of sales because of the machine gun effect which is still prevalent in the td-30.
          The only kit I've heard that seems to cover the cracks is the 2 box drumit 5.
          Maybe it has a drumizer type logarithm which randomises or varies the velocities a tiny bit when at the same level.
          The ATV to me doesn't sound as bad as the comments here make it out to be.
          Just listen to the td-30 you tube demo I put up above a few posts earlier.
          Sounds like a casio kb.
          The real problem with edrums.
          You can get ten drummers on the exact same acoustic kit and they would all make a different sound on it.
          That's really down to the touch which comes down to velocity levels.
          Last edited by smasha; 04-02-16, 10:56 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by smasha View Post
            This module sounds way better than the Roland td-30 imo.
            I'm only going by you tube demos but I can hear machine gunning in those td 30 demos just as much ,if not more.
            .
            Td-30 have been released 4 years ago (developed way before), not in 2016, secondly people are tired of new module without real innovation and add worst when a module is released completely empty, unfinished, cannot be tweaked as a minimum, you will get heard of it pretty quickly. There is no guaranty the company will be running at long run and support it, especially they don't sell kits, thin limited product, limited sales\income big difference here.


            For Td-30 depend on which video you see, some video are default kit which are not made well and sound not enough good basically for All Roland module, default kits are very basic, you can dial a bit more to get more good sound kit, with td-30 you can tweak for your taste, but remain some limitation on multi sample for each instrument, lower then 4, and some synthetic sounding, the price is way overpriced. You need to spend tons of time to get some kits which will be restricted to advanced users, unless you change only the sound, but remain all the rest to be done or buy Vex patch to get better overall sound.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLQyumzlxkw
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfRdiR9fVO4
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdUL_19L_3c
            Last edited by Chris K; 04-03-16, 03:59 AM.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by smasha View Post
              I think the trouble with edrums is not how many samples used but how many velocity levels are used.
              Midi is 0-128 right?
              I think that is the problem.
              If you had just one sample loaded on a pad but that sample had 1000 velocity layers ,then the machine gun effect would be greatly decreased.
              That is the real problem,the amount of velocity resolution.
              You could mask that by using alot of contacts on the pad so the sound changes a tiny bit if you moved your stick just a little bit on the pad.
              That is the number one reason why edrums lose alot of sales because of the machine gun effect which is still prevalent in the td-30.
              The only kit I've heard that seems to cover the cracks is the 2 box drumit 5.
              Maybe it has a drumizer type logarithm which randomises or varies the velocities a tiny bit when at the same level.
              The ATV to me doesn't sound as bad as the comments here make it out to be.
              Just listen to the td-30 you tube demo I put up above a few posts earlier.
              Sounds like a casio kb. The real problem with edrums. You can get ten drummers on the exact same acoustic kit and they would all make a different sound on it.That's really down to the touch which comes down to velocity levels.
              You don't need 1000 sample at all, and it would take too much memory and issue, even 127 is alots, this have been talked before tons of time,multi-sample reduce the repetitive sound\machine gunning, we are talking overall sounding as well, cymbal, toms, snare as you hit sound samples should change either in velocity or round robin function, few done these you need multi layers sample like computer VST drum software, 2BOX or upcoming Strike module to avoid repetitive sound, 2box and VST can have up to 127 multi samples\ 127 midi sensitivities level, Alesis Strike around 40 multi sample\127 midi sensitivities level if not changed.

              Current market, we are talking about sound variation more then 4\5 samples for all for the current flag ship module mostly with 127 midi sensitivities level, I think even at 15\20 would be way much better from the current market, this is why we have all the limited samples range spectrum\tone\ and machine gunning.

              AD5 sound well because they have selected the sample sound still limited multi samples from the current market, (finally tested in local store), but this is not enough these days in 2016, especially not at this price, limited feature and locked module, some don't care about these low multi sample, they wanted to play and don't need them about rolling soft to hard, mid to hard with limited spectrum samples, tom fills, faster slower roll or accents without the same sample heard, triplets etc rim\head etc. (Tom Rim not available on the AD5)


              I am using the VST with Td15, I am waiting for the Alesis Strike to see what result would be, if any issue with sample loading\ or some limited\issue not expected, I will wait again, no rush since VST right now have the best sounding drum possible for all style , all speed, all velocity, all accents etc.
              Last edited by Chris K; 04-03-16, 03:31 AM.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by Chris K View Post

                You don't need 1000 sample at all, and it would take too much memory and issue, even 127 is alots, this have been talked before tons of time,multi-sample reduce the repetitive sound\machine gunning, we are talking overall sounding as well, cymbal, toms, snare as you hit sound samples should change either in velocity or round robin function, few done these you need multi layers sample like computer VST drum software, 2BOX or upcoming Strike module to avoid repetitive sound, 2box and VST can have up to 127 multi samples\ 127 midi sensitivities level, Alesis Strike around 40 multi sample\127 midi sensitivities level if not changed.

                Current market, we are talking about sound variation more then 4\5 samples for all for the current flag ship module mostly with 127 midi sensitivities level, I think even at 15\20 would be way much better from the current market, this is why we have all the limited samples range spectrum\tone\ and machine gunning.

                AD5 sound well because they have selected the sample sound still limited multi samples from the current market, (finally tested in local store), but this is not enough these days in 2016, especially not at this price, limited feature and locked module, some don't care about these low multi sample, they wanted to play and don't need them about rolling soft to hard, mid to hard with limited spectrum samples, tom fills, faster slower roll or accents without the same sample heard, triplets etc rim\head etc. (Tom Rim not available on the AD5)


                I am using the VST with Td15, I am waiting for the Alesis Strike to see what result would be, if any issue with sample loading\ or some limited\issue not expected, I will wait again, no rush since VST right now have the best sounding drum possible for all style , all speed, all velocity, all accents etc.

                Not talking about using 1000 samples at all.I'm talking about using 1000 velocities within the one sample.
                I don't think using more samples fixes the machine gun problem,it's how much velocity resolution is used.
                Even with one sample used on one pad,ifthe velocities went from 0-1000 ,then the machine gun effect would be gone.
                Or you could use a randomiser on the velocities like a few vst plugins use to slightly randomise the velocitiesaround the orginal velocity struck to vary the level to erase the machine gun effect.(Superior Drummer 2 uses this).

                Comment


                • Originally posted by smasha View Post


                  Not talking about using 1000 samples at all.I'm talking about using 1000 velocities within the one sample.
                  I don't think using more samples fixes the machine gun problem,it's how much velocity resolution is used.
                  Even with one sample used on one pad,ifthe velocities went from 0-1000 ,then the machine gun effect would be gone.
                  Or you could use a randomiser on the velocities like a few vst plugins use to slightly randomise the velocitiesaround the orginal velocity struck to vary the level to erase the machine gun effect.(Superior Drummer 2 uses this).
                  Velocities is basically only the volume, it will not works, it's basically the DB getting higher or lower, not the particularity of the sound instrument like the attack\tone\timbre of the instrument on each velocities, when you hits real instrument, the properties of the sound change because of the force, which are attack, tone, timbre and can even detune not only the DB volume both came together at the same time, DB and the sound change as well.

                  Using one sample at 1000 velocity will not able to change the attack\tone\timbre\ detune propertie, you heard the same and exact same sound since you are using one samples, the only difference here is when you will record it, you will see different wav profils resolution, but the sound remain the exact the same.

                  Try this, trigs one snare that have one sample, make a roll loop, play it, take the volume knob and turn it as you like full to low no matter what, this is the same thing with velocities, same sound but differents DB volume level.

                  "Or you could use a randomiser on the velocities like a few vst plugins use to slightly randomise the velocities around the orginal velocity struck to vary the level to erase the machine gun effect.(Superior Drummer 2 uses this). "

                  They are using "randomizer" to alternate the velocities which have one wav samples on each velocities level which contains (different attack\tone) to them sampled in studio with multiple force, this is why it working, 2box have this option as well randomizer or velocity for samples, you can set them as you like how you want them to sound.



                  What not have been done yet, I think, did not saw it is...


                  with each velocity you could have 10 or more samples on randomize


                  velocity 127 is using using 10 or more sample in random on each strike

                  to

                  velocity 1 is using using 10 or more sample in random on each strike


                  Now count, 10 sample on each velocity (1 -127) 10x127 =1270 different samples for one instruments not limited to 127 samples, Huge problem will be the memory and latency to handle all these stream...

                  Comment


                  • As an advocate of the "brute force" ideology. I think it's still early days yet.

                    No module (bar a heavily modded 2box, only hindered by other missing features) has yet reached the pinnacle of this technology where we could agree that clawing back some of the old ways would be favourable.

                    What the fruit am I talking about? In layman's terms; there is a sweet spot whereby we enough velocity layers to give a natural response, not too many layers that loading times are crippled, and not too few that machine gunning occurs.

                    Secondly, enough layers in the pool of similar velocities in a given range of MIDI (e.g. 90 - 127) that randomization doesn't start to interfere with the natural response, or the drum starts becoming unpredictable in character because too much randomisation occurs, and velocity layers are fetched from too far away from where it was naturally recorded. There is a fine degree required, and has been sighted as both a positive and a negative by some people; one person's boring samples could be another person's salvation of reliable tones.

                    A brief word about velocity resolution; this is not the problem.

                    Resolution is solely down too the quality of your pads, piezos & the electrical properties of the module. E.g. I have a raw resolution on a few of my pads that is 0 - 756, they all get transmuted by the module into a midi note between 0 - 127 regardless. Increasing this range would not improve anything.

                    I will concede that once we get to the point whereby we have a SSD embedded module with 127 velocity layers per drum, loading under 10 seconds, and we can turn off the (by then) redundant randomization algorithms, then we can talk about expanding MIDI resolution beyond 127. Otherwise it's way too soon to be evolving the midi standard beyond the capabilities of modules that are not hindered by it in the slightest.

                    To be clear, this would have to be after we get to the stage of assigning multiple velocity layers on a single midi note (instead of pools to ranges) which is another pinnacle that VSTs will never reach in the foreseeable future - because it will become ridiculously inefficient. The optimum sweet spot would have been passed by a country mile at this point.

                    No, we'll see the emergence of separating drum skin and shell resonance samples before that occurs.
                    ♦ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ♦ MegaDRUM + Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ♦ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ♦ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring
                    Community Drum Module Document
                    PA Specifications (wip)

                    Comment


                    • Wouldn't 1000 velocity levels be able to discern the minute differences in each drum hit even with only one sample thus removing the machine gun effect?

                      Comment


                      • No, and you've been given the answer. Velocity is volume solely, no other information is in the message. It's like someone repeating the same sentence at different levels; the content remains the same. What 'samples' do in this analogy is changing the content according to loudness change.
                        MarkDrum YES e-kit highly modified (DIY hall-sensor based hihat, low-volume trigger cymbals, 16" DIY kick, 12" DIY snare + tom 3), Triggera 10" splash
                        Gibraltar 9607NL-DP Legless Hi Hat, Intruder Double Pedal
                        Shure SE215 in-ears w. CustomArt silicone tips

                        Comment


                        • The fact that you need such a huge amount of velocity layers is exact the reason why Roland persists on COSM (or whatever marketing term they use) and they will succeed if they cooke some real sounding tom toms for us. With snares, bass drums, piano's and brass instruments they already succeed
                          Robert

                          Comment


                          • I agree. I've said for years that Roland would rule the market if they had BOTH their COSM engine, and QUALITY default sounds. That's really all they need to do. Sadly, it appears every time Roland creates sounds, they destroy them for the engine. I mean, I understand why they have to do what they do to the sounda, but I do hope they start from scratch soon, and stop with the continued pushing of the older engine.
                            Alan
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                            Comment


                            • I am not sure why anyone thinks you need 1000 layers to compete with Roland. The 2box demos with 40 to 90 samples per drum are out performing the TD30 for realism .
                              The system that works best right now is multiple samples and 7 or so velocity layers. BFD already had 256 samples per drum with constant velocity. The problem was needing round robin at the top of the velocity range.

                              I prefer the samples to have limited volume range in the sample editing even though the drum hits are quiet to loud. I have used Vst's that jump in volume more than when I record my acoustic kit.

                              Comment


                              • Allan just reveal from his DD review , if you want more sound, the only way is to spend more money, AD5 will only sell sound separately and by single instruments (not by kits) on their web site, if the price is ridiculous like 10$ each instrument sound you will end up 1000$ for 100 singles sounds, which VST way less for GB multi samples of sound and complete kits and tons of instruments and DSP etc, to me this is all no sens charging more for single instruments sound when the module have 5 kits at $1099 USD. I would understand if the internal module had at least 15 drum kits with percussion sound etc., now you will have to spend more for this... 5$-10$-15$ each sound?...now look like to build complete new single kits will cost between 40$-100$?
                                Last edited by Chris K; 04-28-16, 04:56 PM.

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