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TD-25 Missing Features

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  • TD-25 Missing Features

    I originally posted this list in the long-running TD-25 thread. This information may be useful to potential buyers so I've moved it to its own thread.

    The TD-25 provides sounds from the TD-30 in a module priced at less than half the cost. As such, it's tempting to consider the TD-25 a great deal, and in some ways it is. However, while designing a streamlined interface for the TD-25, Roland seems to have misunderstood the line between optimizing and dumbing down, thus eliminating a number of features many users consider standard. This list of missing features is comprised from observations after reading the TD-25 documentation (both the owner's manual and the parameter guide) and from reports TD-25 owners have made here on the forum. As more information becomes known, please add to and/or correct this list. Here's the list:

    TD-25 Missing Features
    1.0) While some kits are amongst the best heard from Roland and are usable out of the box, none-the-less, there are still a lot of synthetic-sounding, overly processed, and machine-gun-prone kits that aren't very useful.

    2.0) Head and rim sounds cannot be assigned independently.

    3.0) Instrument assignments are limited by input type. Examples: snare input only allows snare instrument assignments, tom inputs only allow tom instrument assignments, bass drum input only allows bass drum instrument assignments, etc. Only the single aux input allows assignment of any instrument. Want a second hi-hat on the rim of a tom? No can do. Want two, three, or more snare drums available simultaneously on the tom pads? No can do. Want a second bass drum on one of the tom pads? No can do. Etc.

    4.0) Sequencer has been eliminated.

    5.0) Digital recorder is so limited, in both features and recording time, that it's not very usable. Some examples of the limitations:

    5.1) Internal memory provides only three minutes of recording time.

    5.2) When using USB storage, recordings are limited to 30 minutes.

    5.3) There is only one track so you cannot record the drums, backing track, and click track to separate tracks. Thus, you cannot listen back and check your time against the click, then remove the click to hear your groove with the backing track, and then remove the backing track to hear only the drums.

    5.4) There is only one recording file and this is continually replaced each time you start recording again.

    5.5) Internal recording memory isn't persistent as in other V-Drums modules. Thus, when the power is shut off, the recording is lost. You must remember to export the recording to a USB drive. In an even stranger move, the manual claims "recorded content is deleted when you turn off the power" and makes no mention whether the recording comes from internal or USB memory. Seemingly, even if you record to the USB memory, one must remember to export the recording as otherwise the TD-25 deletes it at power off.


    (6) Export format is limited to: WAV, 16 bit, 44.1 KHz. There are no compressed formats (lossy or lossless) for saving space.

    7.0) As of firmware update 1.10, the TD-25's "quality over quantity" approach took a nose dive into "quantity over quality" territory. The module now provides six variations for each kit category instead of the previous three. Apart from concerns about why six "studio" kits are needed when all one really wants is a single, phenomenal-sounding studio kit, the larger number of kits somewhat breaks the TD-25's category-based interface. The more kits added, the more the interface becomes cumbersome due to its lack of direct kit selection.

    8.0) Owner's manual is incomplete, unnecessarily split into two books, and lacks important details and methodologies. The owner's manual itself is useless on its own because it continually skates over critical topics and refers readers to the parameter guide. For example, here's what it says about the Kit Edit button: "In Kit Edit you can make detailed settings for a drum kit. For details on setting parameters, refer to Parameter Guide (PDF)". Other critical features are covered with the same degree of brevity. Another example, here's what the owner's manual says about saving your recordings: "You can export the recorded content to a USB flash drive. For details, refer to Parameter Guide (PDF)." See what I mean? The owner's manual is entirely useless without the parameter guide. Oddly though and even more frustrating, the parameter guide is almost as brief as the owner's manual, typically naming parameters, but offering no advice as to how and when one might use them. This is the worst V-Drums documentation I've seen from Roland.

    9.0) X-Stick on/off function (cross-stick on/off), which allows toggling the cross-stick versus rim shot sound while playing, has been removed. The instruments now include duplicates with an "X" at the end of their title, such as "MplSnare" versus " MplSnare X". The "X" version enables the cross-stick. The problem with this approach is, due to the fact instrument assignments cannot be changed in Kit (play) mode, there's no way to toggle the cross-stick versus rim shot sound while playing.

    10.0) Percussion sets and MIDI In are MIA (missing in action) and consequently there's no ability to extend the module with external TTM (trigger to MIDI) devices.
    Last edited by TangTheHump; 06-08-15, 04:25 PM.

  • #2
    I can see the firmware update 1.20 solving everything on the list that can be solved to some degree, and then sadly your main points, 1), 4), 6), 8), and 9) will never be addressed because they are due to inherent hardware/marketing limitations..

    Comment


    • #3
      This sucks that all we have new to talk about from Roland after all this time is some repackaged old tech module with extreme limitations.. Whats even more sad is that my old outdated 11 year old TD-12 module is still WAY better and offers WAY more functionality......... I thought tech was supposed to get better in the future not go backwards ???
      Yamaha M-12
      Superior Drummer 3
      Komplete Audio 6 - Komplete Kontrol 32 - Studio One 6

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by yzf125
        This sucks that all we have new to talk about from Roland after all this time is some repackaged old tech module with extreme limitations.. Whats even more sad is that my old outdated 11 year old TD-12 module is still WAY better and offers WAY more functionality......... I thought tech was supposed to get better in the future not go backwards ???
        Precisely!

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by KennyinDundee

          Precisely!

          X2++!
          "It makes sense if you dont think about it"

          Mimic Pro, SPD-SX, 2-QSC K-10s, K-sub, Yamaha mixer, and a bunch of other expensive cool things!

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi Everyone,

            Wow I'm amazed at the negativity with the TD-25 on this group.

            I accept its a new concept of module and not as editable as previous modules.

            However my question is:

            Does it play better than the td-15 (my current module but I had a td 20 for a number of years before) and is it worth the upgrade?
            Current Kit: Roland TD-15 KV - PD-105 for Snare - Bass Drum KD-85 Toms: 2 x PD-85 + 2 x PDX100 Ride: CY13 Crashs: 2 x CY-12 - TD-25 module on order!

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by yzf125
              This sucks that all we have new to talk about from Roland after all this time is some repackaged old tech module with extreme limitations.. Whats even more sad is that my old outdated 11 year old TD-12 module is still WAY better and offers WAY more functionality......... I thought tech was supposed to get better in the future not go backwards ???
              Probably the most ludicrous thing to me along these lines about the TD-25 is no support for VH-12 or VH-13 hi-hats. Such a huge disappointment.
              I've been drumming for 44 years. I'm 43 years old.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ron34,

                Wow I'm amazed at the negativity with the TD-25 on this group. I accept it's a new concept of module and not as editable as previous modules.
                The negativity comes from the fact customers have been waiting for Roland to come out with something truly new and improved in the V-Drums lineup. Instead, not only is the TD-25 more repackaging of the *same technology and sounds*, it's a step backward in that is has fewer features and less flexibility than modules before it, including the module it replaces and lower end modules.

                For myself, initially, the only intriguing feature of the TD-25 was the addition of a digital recorder, which Roland put plenty of hype around. However, the implementation of the recorder is so limited as to be almost useless. One is better off simply purchasing a standalone digital recorder for less than $100 - even the lowest end standalone recorders provide much more flexibility, file formats, and recording time than the recorder built into the TD-25. Given the digital recorder came at the cost of removing the sequencer, one can look at this as yet another feature reduction. (i.e. Built in recorder is useless and there's no sequencer, either.) All-in-all, the TD-25 is another disappointing release from Roland, albeit one that may bring in new customers.

                Roland isn't doing much to entice existing customers to stay with the brand. Long standing issues and feature requests remain unaddressed. New models add no new features, no significantly new and improved sounds, and actually reduce features. Case in point, look at the TD-12 from a decade ago. Roland replaced this module with the TD-15, a module with significantly fewer features and much, much less I/O flexibility and less flexibility in general than the TD-12. Fast forward. Roland is doing the same trick again, replacing the TD-15 with a lesser featured module (the TD-25). That's two generations of repackaging and feature reductions. And, these reductions are all in the one module that offered a reasonable alternative to the flagship module, which, of course, it does no longer. Disappointing to say the least. It's Roland's inaction in regard to innovation and simultaneous "race to the bottom" that has customers frustrated.

                Does it play better than the td-15 (my current module but I had a td 20 for a number of years before) and is it worth the upgrade?
                I think it's reasonable to say the TD-25 plays like a typical middle to upper end Roland kit that features mesh pads with center-mounted triggers. If you've played one of these kits, you'll know what the TD-25 kits are like. Based on everything I've seen and heard, the TD-25 machine guns about the same as a TD-30 and the sounds are similar. The more important question to ask is can you live with the reduced feature set? The TD-25 has less features and less flexibility than your TD-15.
                Last edited by TangTheHump; 06-09-15, 08:59 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hi Tang,

                  Thanks for your helpful reply.
                  For me the recorder is a plus as I didn't use the sequencer anyway.
                  The td-15 is a great module and does a lot of things well. I play an acoustic Yamaha a church which of course is more dynamic but the Roland kit plays and sounds similar. (Except for the natural reverb from the building).
                  I'm very much a switch on - use type person (can iPhone users be regarded in this way over android users - another topic for another day).
                  So the editing is not a big deal. I do use a 4th Tom and a an extra cy-12 with my kit and interestingly a PD105 for the snare.
                  Roland mentions positional sensing available with a compatible pad for the snare, I wonder if it supports that for the pd105?
                  I note Roland have also put an update 1.10 out there which corrects several of the issues mentioned here - ie being able to remove the click from the recording.
                  I took the plunge on the weekend and ordered this module - I will have a good jam this week and see how it plays.
                  If it is bad it will be going back! So let's hope it's good and meets my expectations.
                  Current Kit: Roland TD-15 KV - PD-105 for Snare - Bass Drum KD-85 Toms: 2 x PD-85 + 2 x PDX100 Ride: CY13 Crashs: 2 x CY-12 - TD-25 module on order!

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    After reading all of the comments relating to the TD-25 drum kit, I think that I'll stick with my TD-15. It has way more features and adjustments verses the TD-25.
                    Roland TD-15K & TD-3 Drumsets, Roland Octopad II, Alesis D4 & DM5 Drum Modules, Alesis HR-16 & HR-16B Drum Machine & Sequencer, Rolls Headphone Amp, Yamaha 12-Channel Mixing Board, Shure In-Ear Monitor Buds, AKG Headphones, Ableton Live 9 DAW, Tama Drums, Zildjian & Sabian Cymbals, Shure, AKG, & Beyer-Dynamic Mikes..etc..............

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Ron34,

                      Once you've had a chance to fully test the TD-25, please come back and update this thread! If you send me a PM with feedback on the points raised in the OP, I'll make whatever changes are appropriate. Thanks! :-)

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        To my knowledge the TD15 was never marketed to replace the TD12. The TD15 actually replaced the TD9. Similar feature set. Similar price range. The range (semi pro) that the TD12 occupied was simply merged into the pro range.

                        All that said, the TD25 is (in my book) a step backward from the TD15. Which is why I aborted my attempt to sell and upgrade.
                        TD-25KV, Yamaha DXR15, MG10. Senn 280HD.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          billgtx,

                          To my knowledge, the TD-15 was never marketed to replace the TD-12. The TD-15 actually replaced the TD-9. Similar feature set. Similar price range. The range (semi pro) that the TD-12 occupied was simply merged into the pro range.
                          Probably a fairer assessment. But, by removing the TD-12 and offering nothing in its place, Roland caused the TD-15 to occupy the space held by both the TD-9 and TD-12. That's what I meant above. Indeed, just as the TD-30 is only a minor upgrade from the TD-20X, the TD-15 is a minor upgrade from the TD-9, but one that removed features, too. As compared with the TD-9, the TD-15 lacks certain features (most notably, it lacks full MIDI implementation with MIDI In and Out). As compared with the TD-12, the TD-15 lacks in many, many ways, including reduced inputs, reduced general I/O, reduced editing, reduced effects, reduced support for upper end pads, etc. And now, with the TD-25 replacing the TD-15 and reducing even more features, Roland's mid-range suffers again. As a number of people here noted, the TD-25 seems aimed at new customers. For existing customers, there's not much to get excited about.
                          Last edited by TangTheHump; 06-09-15, 12:53 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Tang, I may be picking nits but the TD12 was priced at roughly 50% more than the TD9 or 15. To say the 15 occupies the space is a stretch. Especially without mentioning a significant drop in price.

                            I agree with your general assessment, but I think you've unintentionally muddied the water.

                            It is enough (clearly, in my book) to simply note the progression from 9 to 15 to 25 and note the trend of removing features. Yes, the sounds get better with each module but at the cost of other features.
                            TD-25KV, Yamaha DXR15, MG10. Senn 280HD.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              billgtx,

                              Okay. I'm willing to consider the flip side of this. When Roland got rid of the TD-12, that made a lot of sense to me. The TD-12 was so close to the TD-20, especially after Roland unlocked the hidden editing features, that the only differences were a few inputs, support for the VH-12, perhaps a few effects, and lower price. To Roland though, my guess is it cost just as much to make the TD-12 as it did the TD-20. So getting rid of the TD-12 made a lot of sense. Unfortunately, Roland *already* offered the TD-12 so to customers (myself included), a big hole developed in Roland's lineup. I looked at the TD-15 as a possible replacement for the TD-12 and quickly decided this new module wasn't anywhere in the TD-12's league. As you noted, the TD-15 seems more like the logical successor to the TD-9, albeit and sadly, with some features removed. There really was and still is no successor to the TD-12, which is a shame for customers, but makes good sense for Roland given what I'm guessing are similar costs to produce and support each of the high end modules.

                              Where I see Roland barking up the wrong tree is putting out stuff like the TD-25 when the 2Box module exists. Granted, perhaps Roland is counting on the fact 2Box is a small company and thus represents no threat presently. But wow, if any large competitor follows the 2Box lead and makes a 2Box style module that is well supported and readily available, Roland has trouble on their hands. Roland is relying on lack of available competitors and brand recognition as opposed to technical excellence and (true) innovation to maintain their market lead. That's a potentially risky approach, if you ask me.

                              Comment

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