Gen16 being marketed as 'Reduced Volume', not AE

[ohlarikd]

In the latest DRUM! magazine (where the TD25 ad also was), I see a Zildjian Gen16 ad with no mention or picture of the pickups or DCP. The ad is about using them in reduced volume situations.

I wonder if this is the final salvo in this project? I really think they should have invested more in the DCP processing because the raw acoustic sound is pretty good, it just needs more processing to sound more like real cymbals, and that could have been done.

[BWaj]

Agreed, the processing sucks and I continue to battle with them on this. The Gen 16's are the answer to E cymbals if Zildjian would just grow a pair and fix the processing.

[Murgen]

I foresee an increasing interest in them in combination with triggers. Because esp the buffed bronze sound good, soft and much more real then the rubber 'plocks'.

[allanjohn]

I don't think the promotion of Gen-16 as practice cymbals is at all ominous - just a targeted message for acoustic drummers. They are still promoting the AE concept in their digitalDrummer ad, aimed at the e-drum market.

[allanjohn]

Agreed, the processing sucks and I continue to battle with them on this. The Gen 16's are the answer to E cymbals if Zildjian would just grow a pair and fix the processing.

Have you tried the new shapes? I just tested acoustick Ks with pickups and the new shapes and was very, very impressed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-yEkPsh9g

[ZildjianGen16]

Hi,

I would like to thank you in noticing the newest ad in Drum! for the Gen16 series and the interest in the product line. The ad shows the added benefit of the Buffed Bronze cymbals which is they can be used for low volume applications such as practicing. This is not to take away from the AE component of the Gen16 system but show new ways of using the Buffed Bronze cymbals. We are listening and appreciate the feedback especially on the electronics and if anyone has questions please let us know, we are here to help.

Regards,

ZildjianGen16

[BWaj]

Have you tried the new shapes? I just tested acoustick Ks with pickups and the new shapes and was very, very impressed.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ix-yEkPsh9g

No but I did just download them and also switched a few of my nickle cymbals to the buffed bronze. I'm looking forward to experimenting!

[TangTheHump]

Watched and listened to the "Zildjian Gen-16 system with acoustics" video. More appropriate title: "How to make high-end, cast, B20 cymbals sound worse than beginner-grade, sheet-pressed, B8 cymbals". (i.e. How to make first class cymbals sound like utter garbage!)

[BWaj]

Watched and listened to the "Zildjian Gen-16 system with acoustics" video. More appropriate title: "How to make high-end, cast, B20 cymbals sound worse than beginner-grade, sheet-pressed, B8 cymbals". (i.e. How to make first class cymbals sound like utter garbage!)

And you continue to remind me why I have no respect at all for anything you say...

[Murgen]

Watched and listened to the "Zildjian Gen-16 system with acoustics" video. More appropriate title: "How to make high-end, cast, B20 cymbals sound worse than beginner-grade, sheet-pressed, B8 cymbals". (i.e. How to make first class cymbals sound like utter garbage!)

Let's agree to disagree. I have both nickel and buffed and the acoustic sound is quite pleasant. And mind you, my references are Peace cymbals from a Peace starterskit, then Paiste 802 and now Paiste Giant Beats on my Pearl MHX.

[TangTheHump]

(Accidental post removed by author. Yes, that's me, TDM.)

[TangTheHump]

Murgen,

Murgen wrote:
Let's agree to disagree. I have both nickel and buffed, and the acoustic sound is quite pleasant. And mind you, my references are Peace cymbals from a Peace starters kit, then Paiste 802, and now Paiste Giant Beats on my Pearl MHX.

Given that your references are all B8 style cymbals, your assessment makes sense. Paiste, with their 2002 series, was the first company to attempt making professional cymbals from B8. Giant Beats are another attempt by Paiste at making professional cymbals from B8. None-the-less, here is Paiste's own assessment of their efforts, direct from Paiste's patent:

"Less than three decades ago experiments were carried out for economical considerations with a commercial common bronze sheet or plating containing 8% tin by weight. The result was that the old bronze rule was confirmed and proven to be correct. One had to realize that with careful working and processing of the cymbal it was possible to achieve considerable qualitative results with the bronze sheet or plating containing 8% by weight tin, but these results could never approach the results obtained with traditional cymbals having a tin content of 20% by weight."

This is exactly what I hear and what many other fans of Turkish style, B20 and B25 bell bronze cymbals hear. By comparison, B8 sounds thin, shimmery, pingy, and shrill, and lacks body. In some environments (such as with loud, amplified instruments where sonic cut is the critical attribute needed), B8 cymbals can be preferable to B20. But generally, B20 is the preferred alloy, due to its greater range of musical qualities.

Regarding the video demonstrating various Zildjian K cymbals amplified using the Gen16 AE system, the results speak for themselves. In every case, the AE system takes a woody, complex sounding B20 cymbal and reduces it to a shrill, phase-cancelled mess. All the body, complexity, and subtly of the bell bronze is gone. Were those my B20 cymbals and that result came from the PA system, I'd be very unhappy. Given the results shown, if quick setup is the goal, I'd rather capture the essence of the cymbals with a single overhead microphone (or a pair of overhead microphones) than use the AE pickups and processor. I suspect these sentiments speak for a great many fans of Turkish style cymbals.

Edited to add: Even if the sound of the Gen16 AE system was superlative, I'd never drill holes in my cymbals simply to accommodate the Gen16 AE system - not when there are perfectly acceptable and workable traditional solutions (read: just use microphones). As above, I think this applies to a great many cymbal owners, regardless of the alloy (B8, B20, B25, something else) used.

[Murgen]

I have a different experience. Plus that Giant Beat were 2002 predecessors and not designed for rock. This video gives an impression of the ride and the sound is simular to my 24. http://youtu.be/06E3FuaMtxY

[TangTheHump]

Murgen,

I have a different experience.

You mean with the Gen16 AE pickups and processor, or with B8 versus B20 / B25 cymbals?

Some people prefer B8 cymbals to B20 / B25 or combine the different cymbals. Nothing wrong with either approach. I quite like the sound of that Giant Beat ride you linked to. It's the bright, crystal-like "shimmer" that throws a lot of people, including myself. That's a unique Paiste characteristic and one I'm not used to hearing from my cymbals. That Giant Beat ride has it, but it's balanced with other attributes.

Plus that Giant Beat were 2002 predecessors and not designed for rock.

Got the chronology a little mixed up. Sorry about that. Paiste's initial B8 lines went: Stambul 65, Giant Beat, and 2002 series.

[Murgen]

For gigging I play acoustic. Pearl MHX (2004), with Giant Beat 15" hats and 20" and 24" crashrides. That is my favourite kit. At home and for projects I play 2Box. I agree fully Gen16 cymbals will never come close to quality cymbals. However, their sound is not disturbing and I have some DSP settings which are not bad at all. I still want to create a new demo but time is not on my hand.