Let me hear your Akit!

[BWaj]

Camon big talkers! Where are the videos of your kit that blows my Ekit away?!?!!?

I grow tired of this challenge, I posted me live, post you or shut up.

Where are the Akit videos without machine gunning?

I'm waiting..

[Tommy_D]

I don't think anyone will take you up on this. Even the great Tang wont show video to demonstrate just how awful the TD-30 is when compared to acoustics.

[TangTheHump]

"Even the great Tang..."

*laughs* :-)

I'm quite happy to post a sample of one of my acoustic kits. Keep in mind, the recording will be with a small digital recorder and in no way reflects what the kit sounds like under microphones to an audience, but it will give an idea of the starting point. You'll have to wait a few days because the beginning of my week is very busy, but I don't mind creating an example.

In as much as I appreciate the fun in this, it is starting to look a bit silly. You're saying that the world's master drummers and master engineers (all who have selected and continue to select acoustic drums to create their master works) are all wrong? You're saying that when I compare the output of my TD-30 to acoustic drums and deduce that the electronic sounds are a long, long way from providing the expressiveness and flexibility of acoustic drums... that my ears and hands are lying to me? What I believe is your bias toward the TD-30 is clouding your judgment, your ears, and the advice you're giving others.

When buying my TD-30KV kit, not one store said I'd like this kit over a low end acoustic kit. In fact, almost all the stores tried to dissuade me from high end electronic kits (notably the Roland TD-30KV and Yamaha DTX950K), saying the performance simply isn't there yet. These are stores who all stood to profit from my sale, but who all wanted me to come back for future sales. So the stores all lied to me? My background (more than three decades of programming some of the best synthesizers, samplers, drum machines, and drum modules, and now the TD-30) is lying to me? I DON"T THINK SO. I think you like your TD-30 and that's great. Enjoy.

[Intruder]

I think this could get interesting. I do however think it would be hard to hear slight differences in things through a post but, it will be fun to try! So come on "Great Tang" LOL go for it.
I just hope everyone keeps their good humor going with this as it is all in fun.
I will still stand by what I have said on here many times that "the listening audience probably couldn't care less about the sounds of subtle nuances as long as they enjoy the total experience".
Half the enjoyment of playing is the audience enjoying themselves interacting with what they are hearing. I am never planning to gig so I know that I don't care which sounds better.
I love the sounds and the enjoyment of playing my TD-30 weather or not I have an audience so, it's all good.
I hope a few others beside "The Great Tang" post their Akit sounds.
@Tang if you get the time post your Akit then play the same thing on the TD-30 but don't say which is which for a day or so. That could be interesting as well!

Gentlemen, have fun with this...........and Women too!

[Tommy_D]

If I had proper recording equipment I would try to help, but I have no drum mics or an interface to record my acoustic kit. I can record the TD-30 all day. That's easy.

I would really like to try recording acoustics though. If only so I can test the new edges I am cutting on my Catalina's.

[Intruder]

Then we would have "The Great Tommy_D" also!.....LOL

[Tommy_D]

Then we would have "The Great Tommy_D" also!.....LOL

Well, I already have recordings of myself posted on this forum, so I guess that makes me "The Great Tommy_D".

[BWaj]

If I had proper recording equipment I would try to help, but I have no drum mics or an interface to record my acoustic kit. I can record the TD-30 all day. That's easy.

I would really like to try recording acoustics though. If only so I can test the new edges I am cutting on my Catalina's.

And there is a perfect example of my point. You would have to spend lots of money and go to great lengths to get a good recording of your Akit. People suggest 5-7K is too much for a full TD30 kit but if you bought a top of the line AKit with all the necessary parts, and microphones, and effects to make it sound good live, you'd be out a lot more and have much fewer sounds.

I've recorded a ton on Akits and it takes a lot more work to get them sounding good than it does with my Ekit.

[TangTheHump]

Tommy_D wrote:
If I had proper recording equipment, I would try to help, but I have no drum mics or an interface to record my acoustic kit. I can record the TD-30 all day. That's easy. (snip)

BWaj wrote:
And there is a perfect example of my point. You would have to spend lots of money and go to great lengths to get a good recording of your Akit. People suggest 5-7K is too much for a full TD30 kit, but if you bought a top of the line AKit with all the necessary parts, and microphones, and effects to make it sound good live, you'd be out a lot more and have much fewer sounds. I've recorded a ton on Akits and it takes a lot more work to get them sounding good than it does with my Ekit.

I think one of the things leading to the difference of opinions is the assumption everyone is going for the same kind of drum sound. What do I need to do to get a fantastic drum sound for my gigs? Set up my kit. Tune. Play. No microphones. No PA. And, I don't need a $5K to $7K kit, either. A sub $1K kit, when set up properly, can sound fantastic. Cymbals? Poor cymbals are hard to deal with, but the solution is I always bring high quality cymbals.

For small and medium size gigs, the acoustic sound of the drums is fine. Sometimes it is necessary to add a bass drum microphone and/or an overhead for reinforcement, but this is easy to do, especially when the drums are tuned well and the kit sounds great as a whole.

Long ago I realized the pointlessness of handling large-scale PA gear. That's not my job. My job is to make the drums sound great at the source and to play well for the music. For gigs where there is a need to project the band sound over a large area, I leave that job to the sound people, regardless of whether these people are provided by the promoter or contracted by us.

[kaosotis]

And there is a perfect example of my point. You would have to spend lots of money and go to great lengths to get a good recording of your Akit. People suggest 5-7K is too much for a full TD30 kit but if you bought a top of the line AKit with all the necessary parts, and microphones, and effects to make it sound good live, you'd be out a lot more and have much fewer sounds.

I've recorded a ton on Akits and it takes a lot more work to get them sounding good than it does with my Ekit.

I think it completely depends on what you are using the kits for. I would be more likely to record with an e-kit than to play it live, since the studio is already a very controlled environment.

Unless you have a fairly substantial PA for your band or just the drums, the e-kit is never going to sound like an acoustic kit live in small to medium sized venues. I've used my TD9 live in a bar, and while it's fine, I prefer the acoustic sound as it fills the room more naturally.

I have to agree with Tang that you don't need a top of the line kit, with thousands of dollars of fx to sound good live, and if you are at that level you aren't providing your own equipment anyway.

It also depends on the style of music being played and whether or not you need to vary sounds. A large number of bands, if not a majority, are triggering now to layer sounds onto the sounds of their acoustic kit or outright replace them live. Gives you flexibility in changing your snare sound song to song, for example, plus makes the sound consistent with recordings and easier to control. This is actually a cheaper option, plus feels more natural, than playing an e-kit.

I might actually play around with triggering and layering at bigger gigs we have (which aren't big LOL).

[ohlarikd]

Tang is simply right. You don't need us to post recordings, just listen to the hundreds of a-kit vids on YouTube. Try to create a Simon Phillips solo on an eKit. Not happening.

[BWaj]

I absolutely hate the sound of an Akit live if it's not mic'd up. In every venue you guys describe, small to medium with no mics, it sounds like a garage band. But then, I was an audio engineer for a while and am looking for the entire band to sound great and well mixed. Nothing is worse than a snare that's too loud or a ride or hat ripping my head off. Which is almost sure to happen using an Akit in small venues.

And ohlarikd, you really think comparing a video of your favorite sounding AKit with top of the line mics, engineers and studio is fair to amateurs Ekits? You guys want to use the premier example of an Akit as if you have any chance of getting that sound yourself. If you can, post the videos of YOU getting that sound from your AKit.

Many pro's trigger live, wonder why??? I have YET to see one video from one of YOU guys with YOUR AKit. Stop posting videos of pro's, please let us hear how great your kit sounds compared to our EKits. Why is this so hard?

[kaosotis]

It's not hard BWaj, just unnecessary. You might hate the sound of un mic'd drums (and fyi I generally mic the kit a little and run the whole band through the PA even in smaller venues for the reasons you mentioned), but that doesn't mean everyone does.

Pros trigger because audiences, in some instances, have come to expect live performances to sound like recordings. Doesn't mean everyone agrees with that sentiment.

Maybe I jumped into this late, but the intensity of the argument doesn't seem to match the importance of the topic.

[Tommy_D]

I think the reasoning behind wanting video of acoustic vs electric is to show just what is "missing" in the electric kits. We can show videos of people playing acoustics, and others playing electrics and say, "Well, clearly the acoustic is superior!" The problem is, there is no clear apples to apples comparison going on. Instead its Simon Philips or Gavin Harrison playing their A-kit in a studio to one of their songs, and the next video is some doof in his boxers and socks playing Master of Puppets in their bedroom on their TD-20. There is no way to compare the two different videos.

What, I believe, BWaj is looking for is someone from this forum (I'm assuming he is looking for anyone who believes acoustics are superior to electrics because of X, Y, Z reasons) to make a quality video and audio recording on their acoustic kit, then have that exact same drummer make the same quality video playing that same song/pattern/beat/solo/whatever on their electric, then explaining (in detail, I assume) just what was different with those two performances, what was lacking in the electric vs the acoustic, etc. A detailed account of why the acoustic kit was better at the job.

The nay-sayers can go on all day saying electrics are no where near as expressive, or lack dynamic range, or sound like crap, etc. when compared to their acoustic counterpart, but they show no real world side-by-side examples. They just come out of the wood work every time someone mentions they enjoy their the sound of their electric kit, write endless paragraphs spouting audio engineering rhetoric to make themselves look smarter to the masses, throw out ridiculous claims that e-kits haven't developed and advanced in the last 20 years, blah, blah, blah and side track every thread in to an A vs. E debate. Its stupid. This thread here is a "put up, or shut up" thread for the nay-sayers to prove their claims. Personally, I'm all for this. If anything I think it will help settle debates like this and can be a point of reference for people in the future when this topic is brought up over and over again.

Just so everyone knows, its okay to like acoustic kits on this forum. Its okay to say you prefer acoustic kits on this forum. In fact, its okay to compare and contrast acoustic vs electric on this forum. What is not okay, and is really getting old, is for someone to derail every single thread in to an A vs. E debate and have no practical data to support their claims. Its trolling and shouldn't be tolerated.

[kaosotis]

Fair enough Tommy, I guess I'm not around enough to have noticed the nay sayers.

I really like my DIY TD kit, and I converted my old Tama's to an A/E kit. I mainly use e-stuff for volume control when practicing. As I've said, I've used my e-kit at shows but I'm not a huge fan of it.

My rationale is mostly around a few points:

1) Hard to get the same on stage monitoring sound, which the band has issues with.
2) Hard to get a good enough sound for the audience (both 1 and 2 are mostly PA issues but can't afford to upgrade), although I could try using AD2 and see how it sounds. Doesn't sound as natural. But there would still be the issue of presence in the room.
3) I don't love the playing feel of the cymbals. Once again, maybe $ would allow me to upgrade but don't have it.

On the plus side, I don't mind the playing feel of either e-kit using mesh heads at all. I play mostly pop/rock, so the "expressive" thing isn't as big a deal. And setup is easy since the kit is on a rack.

I'm certainly not a nay sayer (the drummer on American Idol used a TD30 kit on stage for years and it made me very jealous), I just was surprised by the tone of the put up or shut up in this thread. I've seen videos using both A and E drums (not done by super pro's) that sounded great to me.

If I could afford a super high end e-kit, I'd certainly be tempted to use it live.

Certainly when it comes to recording there are pro's and con's to A and E kits,but the Ekits are certainly easier to record in terms of setup.