SIGNAL PROCESSING

[Marc.]

OK - I play at home and have many custom sets sounding totally awesome thru my headphones or the stereo. I am learning that this is not how my V's will sound in a "live" setting, i.e. direct amplification to a loudspeaker. This is not a good thing.

So now we must purchase additional h/w to process the V's signals in order to reproduce the great sound I hear thru the phones? Not only that, but I must also create a duplicate set of my kits and alter all the settings for a "live" environment? I think the term was to deliver as "dry" a signal as possible. This too is not a good thing.

I have no problem buying an amp & speaker for "live" playing. That's a given. I am learning that we need to purchase the actual h/w versions of the TD's on-board effects to get that same "sound" I delicately crafted on the brain?

I can understand vocals and acoustic instruments requiring signal processing, in that the only device capturing their sound is the mic. What I don't understand is why the v's electronic signal (or any e-instrument for that matter) is not faithfully reproduced. IOW, what exactly happens to that great sounding signal that I hear via my headphones that causes it to sound different "live". Do I need a course in quantum mechanics or string theory.

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[Jimmy C]

I can understand how processing already processed/manipulated sounds can create some problems - but I also don't quite grasp why it can sound so different (good) when sent thru headphones. Something to do with the jacks as suggested by others? I dunno.

[puttenvr]

Marc., this is indeed a difficult theory, perhaps other members can answer the questions better than I can.

But what I learned from playing the units is that the headphones out uses a give more controlled signals than the 'normal' outputs which you connect to a sound system. Perhaps this has something to do with the small amplifier which runs the headphones out while the other outputs give more rough signals. The problem of hot spots in general also only excists when you play the e-drums live, not with the headphones on. I noticed even a differences when the e-drum sounds are triggered by the internal demo songs and when you play them with drum pads. When played by the demo songs or internal sequencer also the MIDI dynamics are not a problem. When played live, they are...

In another thread members already wrote that you do need signal processing for playing the V's live. I wait for a technician to explain why.

[Marc.]

Thanks Rob, an interesting thought. It's easy for me to understand analog-to-digital-to-analog, which I equate to, say, capturing an acoustic/vocal sound, sending it through all the gear and hearing the end result via the speakers. But my problem is I cannot grasp why a signal that starts out digital needs to be further d-i-g-i-t-i-z-e-d !
If it is being degraded by the output circuitry of the TD, I would definitely be lighting up fires over at Roland and demanding that this "problem" be fixed.

ERGO, what would be the result if the amp/speakers were connected to the headphone outputs? Would a warp-core breach ensue? I'm not trying to be funny here, just trying to get some schooling as I ponder returning to live playing.

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[Boingo]

Originally posted by Marc.:
ERGO, what would be the result if the amp/speakers were connected to the headphone outputs? Would a warp-core breach ensue? I'm not trying to be funny here, just trying to get some schooling as I ponder returning to live playing.

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I think a couple of the guys have written about running the headphone out to a monitor amp. I recall them saying it worked fine however I don't recall them saying it was better.

Frankly, I am not quite so surprised at this phenomenon. You are taking two (rather small) speakers and putting them directly to your ear. You can hear every little echo, high and low, (depending on speaker quality), etc. Why is everyone so surprised to the have this detail lost in the amp. Some amps produce better sounds than others and my guess is just about all of them color the sound - some quite a bit. Add to that room acoustics and the plot thickens. It's no wonder to me you need to either change settings drastically or get better processing equipment.

I have found that I can get very close to the sound of most of my kits on my amp with a lot of tweaking of TD settings as well as the EQ on my amp. However, I am playing at a rather low volume in a basement. I have taken the same kits and copied them to a Church setting and seen a drastic change in sound. Different amp, different TD, different room, yada yada...

[Marc.]

Good points Boingo. So perhaps I won't need to go pyro on the Big R. It's beginning to sound as though the environment acoustic phenomena are the major players here. If this is indeed true then everything would require processing. However, I have read that signal processing is also required for studio work. What???!!! This seems to me a different can of worms! The confusion mounts ...

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[szvook]

[Jimmy C]

.......(pop!)

[puttenvr]

szvook, you're head of the technician departement right now.

Ouff... wish I've learned more on school...

[gingerbaker]

Szvook,

I'm no engineer, but....

Are you saying that the actual output from the TD-? is a digital signal? I don't think that is the case.

And, isn't the signal to the headphones as processed as that to the different outs? I would think that your argument would predict sound as crappy to the headphones as one would (does) get from the direct outs.

Additionally, unlike Puttenvr, I am quite aware of hotspots when I listen through the headphones. Again, if the headphone circuit was extra-processed, wouldn't it sound worse than the direct outs, not better?

It's almost as if the sound from the single powered monitor using direct outs is compressed compared to the headphones. (perhaps this is a characteristic of the amps in these systems, designed to prevent overload?)

I think the difference in speaker sizes and impedence across frequencies is why the V's sound great through headphones (also perhaps a hotter signal?) than through a single monitor, like a JBL or Mackie.

I know that there is a huge difference in sound when I use either the single powered monitor, or go thru our P.A. which uses a powered crossover, and a subwoofer and front-of-house mains each having their own amplifier channel.

In other words, with the higher quality speakers and amps in the P.A., the sound of the V's is very much like what I hear in the headphones. And the onboard effects sound fine through the P.A., while they seem a bit much through the single monitor.

And, no our P.A. has just a compressor,limiter barely running and our reverb is not used for the drums.

So, it seems to me that the output of the V's can be amplified wuth excellent reproduction compared to the headphone sound (our defacto "reference" sound) but only using multiple cabinets and lots of power.

I guess my question is, why do the single powered speakers, like the JBL G2, or the Mackie sound like crap compared to either headphones or a P.A.?

And, more importantly, what is the best way, short of carrying a real P.A. around with you, to maximize the sonic quality of a single powered speaker?

[Boingo]

Thanks for the response szvook. That shed some light on things. I understand what your're saying, it makes sense and I have no arguments with any of it.

I would like to point out to people that there's a difference between totally unacceptable sound, acceptable sound and great sound. Personnally, I think the V's are an excellent alternative to those with limited monetary units and you can get a good (not professional) live sound. I play at a Church with ~350 in attendance. It's a good sized room. We can't afford "professional" equipment. The V's allowed us to have controlled, good sound quality. I'm sure many bands fall into this category. While no where in these posts has anyone said the V's fall into the unacceptable category, I can see people possibly interpreting it that way. Some may disagree, but that's how I see (hear) it.

Marc: you can go the Dave Weckl route if you have the resourses and that's what it takes to satisfy your needs. You have to be the judge.

[szvook]

[puttenvr]

Okay, so far I understoud what people say (i always lie )

Two more questions:
- why do keyboards and guitar systems also sound a bit different on headphones than on a sound systems, but is the difference not that large? I play some keyboards myself and I never have to tweak the sounds that much. Is it something with the trancients (sounds without a real tone like snare buzzing and the attack from a drumstick on a drumhead). I heard people complain about their Vsnare sound in live situations. Such a snare drum has two trancients (buzzing and attack). Do sound systems have problems with the spikes in a drum sound and small headphone speakers not? Why does the V-guitar system from my band-mate sound much better than my Vdrums ever did? Same company ... ehhh, so there must be something with drum sounds?

- on the other hand, szvook, you found out yourself that the ddrums sound good on a small sound system without any outboard gear as well. This is not meant to be a thread "Vdrums against ddrums" but I wonder why this difference? Is it the processed V-drum sound who needs an extra powerfull system? Or the 18 bits D/A converters on the d?

I agree on the SPL rating/decibel theory. I play a 130 watt combo myself and you may think it isn't loud enough. But it is ...

[szvook]

[Marc.]

Originally posted by szvook:

No, not me. Very good data szvook. However, gingerbaker has made a valid argument also. Bottomline seems to be what one hears and the degree of satisfaction at what is heard, professional or not!

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