Purchase advice please:- TD-15KV or TD-12K

[Dbraz1976]

Hello guys, please be gentle on me it's my first post!

I am in the process of setting up a home studio. The studio is not built yet but that will get underway shortly. In my set up I have a full guitar and bass set-up and intend to add some V Drums for a few reasons. 1.) The volume can be easily adjusted and 2.) I would like the ability to play through a mixer/headphones with an AXE FX D.I.'d guitar set up.

The V Drums would be used for rehearsals and recording, perhaps gigging at some point. Portability is useful.

I have a budget that would allow me to buy a used TD-12K or alternatively a TD-15KV. I have read up on both and from what I can see the TD-12K has the advantage of PS where as the TD-15KV has SuperNATURAL.

What's best?

I would prefer to stay with Roland so is there anything else I should consider?

[perceval]

Many factors will come into play.

Here's a couple to get you started...

How big will the kit be? With the TD15, you are limited to the number of inputs on the module, with the TD12, you can expand as it has MIDI in.

If you get "guest" drummers, many acoustic drummers feel awkward trying to play the small pads, so maybe an A-2-E kit might be interesting. By that, I mean using an acoustic kit, but adding triggers and changing to mesh heads. That way, you can keep the size and feel of an A-kit. It's also a great way to save some money!

Are real drum sounds important? Or the synthesis of drum sounds from a Roland module enough? If you want something closer to the real thing, adding VSTs to the kit (while hooked to a computer) or using a 2Box module will give you better sounds.

All these things are discussed in the different sections of the forum (DIY, VST, etc...).

So, check stuff out and after some searching, tell us more of what you need.

[grog]

Start your search in here by typing in the following into the search bar:

td12 td15

That comes up with only 5 pages of hits and most of those are simply additional posts to an original thread. It appears there are one or two threads that talk specifically about compare/contrast the 12/15 modules.

Keep in mind that "features" are very individually driven. For example, positional sensing. If you absolutely have to have it, then a module without it, regardless of what else it has that's appealing, won't be for you. I'm not saying that positional sensing itself drives this, it's just an example of what I'm talking about. Keep that in mind as you read thru those threads. It might better help you formulate what's an important feature (for you).

If you have specific questions about one module or the other, we've got plenty of users here who have one. For example, I have a TD-12.

https://www.digitaldrummermag.com

https://www.dauphinehotel.com

[TangTheHump]

I'd choose the TD-12 based kit because the module is so much nicer to use and the module is more flexible. Forget about SuperNATURAL. It's marketing BS. Roland modules have a sound signature and the SuperNATURAL branded modules are no different. All of that said, were I shopping in your price range, I'd strongly consider moving away from Roland. At that price point, I'd grab a 2Box module with cymbals and hi-hat, and add an out-of-the-box A2E kit (from Jobeky, Diamond, Drum Tec, or the like) with real drum sizes. With that setup you get sounds and playability that blow the best Roland and Yamaha kits out of the water. Don't underestimate how much proper drum sizes make the kit more playable. It's a huge deal. I don't know why neither Roland nor Yamaha have addressed this, but third party companies have and it's well worth checking out those options.

[jpsquared482]

I'd choose the TD-12 based kit because the module is so much nicer to use and the module is more flexible. Forget about SuperNATURAL. It's marketing BS. Roland modules have a sound signature and the SuperNATURAL branded modules are no different. All of that said, were I shopping in your price range, I'd strongly consider moving away from Roland. At that price point, I'd grab a 2Box module with cymbals and hi-hat, and add an out-of-the-box A2E kit (from Jobeky, Diamond, Drum Tec, or the like) with real drum sizes. With that setup you get sounds and playability that blow the best Roland and Yamaha kits out of the water. Don't underestimate how much proper drum sizes make the kit more playable. It's a huge deal. I don't know why neither Roland nor Yamaha have addressed this, but third party companies have and it's well worth checking out those options.

Actually, SuperNatural is not BS IMHO. I have owned a TD-30, TD-11 and TD-15s as well as a TD-10, TD-20 TD-7 and a TD-4. SuperNatural makes a very big difference with rolls and cymbal swells which are important to me and most drummers I believe. Regardless, I highly recommend you go with a TD-11 and use VSTs; you get the most bang for the buck with that setup. The sounds are better than the TD-30, the module is very cost effective and you get the benefit of not having to add a MIDI converter box between the module and your computer. It all stays within the USB/MIDI cable for a simple connection. I run EZDrummer2 which maps very nicely to the TD-11 and 15 when you select Roland as the module (in EZD2) and select Curve #1 for the HH setting.) AMAZING combination. It also exceeds SuperNatural on the lack of machine gunning, articulations, rimshots, you name it. You could even get two used TD-11s for twice the inputs and outputs used for about what a TD-15 goes for. IMHO this system is the best kept secret in Roland systems.

[TangTheHump]

jpsquared482,

I believe we're mixing up terms the terms "SuperNATURAL" and "behaviour modeling", though Roland sometimes mixes these up, too. SuperNATURAL is Roland's blanket term for a group of disparate synthesis technologies. Not all SuperNATURAL instruments are the same and, indeed, one instrument may use one technology, another instrument may use a different technology, and a third may use the first two technologies plus another. Thus, it's really hard to tell what SuperNATURAL means and what it's impact is on a given instrument. This is why I call it a BS marketing term.

For V-Drums, there have been sonic improvements, but the somewhat "synthetic" sonic characteristic that V-Drums are known for remains from the previous generation and has carried through into the current generation. What you're talking about (mimicking playing techniques such as rolls and cymbal swells) is behaviour modeling. There is nothing new about that technology and it has been in V-Drums for many generations.

Regarding the OP's question, I'd chose the TD-12 because, despite it being older than the TD-15, it's the more flexible module and it sounds better than the TD-15, too. Both modules machine gun so that's a non-issue. Heck, the TD-30 also machine guns, despite that Roland claims the opposite.

When we move into the DIY world (as both you and I suggested - me with 2Box and A2E, and you with TD-11 and VSTi instruments), things change drastically. However, not everyone wants to build up a kit from scratch. Certainly though, if triggering VSTi instruments were my goal and I could get a TD-11, TD-12, or TD-15 module all for around the same price, once again I'd choose the TD-12 because it offers more sophisticated triggering options, more trigger inputs, positional sensing, a more flexible sequencer, and a better user interface. Also, a big plus for the TD-12 is it has individual quarter inch inputs for all trigger inputs (whereas the TD-11 and TD-15 use a proprietary wiring harness) and multiple audio outputs, should one wish to use some of the internal sounds. Other than price difference (if there is one - I think the OP is talking about buying a used TD-12 versus a new TD-15), I don't see the TD-11 and/or TD-15 as having any advantage over the TD-12. In fact, the TD-12 surpasses both modules, whether you're using the module solo or for triggering VSTi instruments.

Edited to add: I checked the last system update for the TD-12. As of that update, Roland added the extra triggering and v-edit features found in the TD-20 and TD-20X to the TD-12. Thus, excepting 3 extra trigger inputs, the 8 individual audio outs, the master compressor and master EQ, and the expanded voice library of the TDW-20 expansion board, the TD-12 and TD-20 are identical. If you can find one priced inexpensively, that's a lot of bang for the buck... great as a stand alone module and even better for triggering VSTi libraries because it has the complete set of positional sensing features.

[TangTheHump]

Here are a few demos of the TD-15 and TD-12. Roland packs so many junk sounds into their modules that it becomes difficult to tell what percentage of sounds in each module are actually useful and playable for general purpose music making. Indeed, many demos (for both modules) are taken up with kits and sounds that are utterly useless. Contrary to my earlier post, listening now, the TD-15 does sound more up-to-date and somewhat better than the TD-12. However, both modules machine gun like crazy and because of this it's rather moot as to which module sounds better. Once the machine gunning kicks in, any sense of acoustic realism is totally lost. Roland has the triggering aspect of their modules down, but the sound generation, and particularly the machine gunning artifacts, leave a lot to be desired and this is still true in their current top-of-the-line module, the TD-30.

At any rate, take a listen and see what you think. What the TD-12 offers is more flexibility in terms of adjusting trigger settings and the sounds themselves. Also, as I pointed out before, it has more inputs. Still, if you like the sound of the TD-15 better, that might sway you. 2Box certainly demonstrates the notion "who needs extra adjustments when the sound is already phenomenally good".

drum-tec Diabolo Black mit Roland TD15 V-drums Modul (Supernatural Sounds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bM10WMfJ2gY

Roland TD-12 sound vs Superior Drummer 2.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiNhJABnfHc

Roland TD-12KX V-Drum kit demo - Nevada Music UK

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NfAhhcu1mZk

[seasack]

I have the TD-11 and only use it for triggering VSTi's - which sound in my ears way better than the any internal sounds, including the TD-30. The built-in USB audio-interface is rather charming, but the big advantage of the TD-12 is the higher number of inputs.

[jpsquared482]

Additional inputs are definitely nice, but IMHO trigger speed it really important. The TD-11, 15 and 30 have about 30% faster triggering. When you combine that with the fact that you don't need an Audio interface means no additional latency between the module and the computer, just the computer's/software's latency itself. I'm measuring about 2mSec, not bad at all.

[jpsquared482]

jpsquared482,

I believe we're mixing up terms the terms "SuperNATURAL" and "behaviour modeling", though Roland sometimes mixes these up, too. SuperNATURAL is Roland's blanket term for a group of disparate synthesis technologies. Not all SuperNATURAL instruments are the same and, indeed, one instrument may use one technology, another instrument may use a different technology, and a third may use the first two technologies plus another. Thus, it's really hard to tell what SuperNATURAL means and what's it's impact is on a given instrument. This is why I call it a BS marketing term.

Hmm, it is confusing, and I think we're interpreting Roland's message in slightly different ways. Take a look at the graphic on the Roland site (below), and here's my take: SuperNATURAL is what they call the "Complete and Natural Drumming Experience". Behavior Modeling is an element of that experience that addresses playing the pads and cymbals, or simply put "triggering" (they call it "playing input"). At the bottom of the image below, Behavior Modeling covers Playing Input, Drum Reaction and Room Ambience. What they've done with behavior modeling is interpret what the drummer is intending (buzz rolls vs R/L single strokes for examples are interpreted simply based on the intervals between hit, or put another way, "speed".) If strikes on a drum pad are played as a buzz, interval control kicks in to lessen attack and reduce machine-gunning. On cymbals, if you play in rapid succession, it also lessens attack and maybe boosts the root sound to emulate a swell. I'm not sure how ambience comes into play exactly, but my take is it is boosted a bit when you hit hard?) It actually works fairly effectively.

One reason I agree it is confusing, if you look below, behavior modeling includes playing input, drum reaction (the sound generator), and the effects all together. Wrap that all up and you get SuperNATURAL. So, doesn't this depict that SuperNatural and Behavior Modeling are one and the same, sine there's nothing else shown that's added to behavior modeling to get SuperNATURAL? It seems to me they should have included Playing Input and Drum Reaction in Behavior Modeling. Separately, add Room Ambience to that and it becomes SuperNATURAL.

Yup, confusing, and from a terminology standpoint, it is Marketing BS. From a playing standpoint, IMHO it is a nice step forward from the older modules. I sort of think SuperNATURAL is/was Roland's reaction to VSTs. They had to come up with something to combat that VSTs are "Super"ior and more "NATURAL" than what they have in these new modules. EZDrummer2 does all that SuperNATURAL does in the "Complete and Natural Drumming Experience" spectrum, and with better sounds.


Screen Shot 2014-12-21 at 10.43.45 AM.png

[TangTheHump]

jpsquared482,

jpsquared482 wrote:
I sort of think SuperNATURAL is / was Roland's reaction to VSTs.

That's a possibility, but if it is, it certainly wasn't motivated solely by the drum world. Roland has been using the term SuperNATURAL for many years. To the best of my knowledge, it first appeared on digital pianos. In Roland's digital piano world, there is no question that SuperNATURAL means "samples with smoothing algorithms to hide transitions between sample layers". That's Roland's own description of what they mean by SuperNATURAL in relation to their digital pianos.

For Roland's synthesizers (like the later Fantoms, the Jupiter 80 and Jupiter 50, and the Integra module), SuperNatural is a buzz term for many different things. For example, in the Jupiter 80, a piano voice is listed as SuperNATURAL when it uses samples that play to full duration (rather than loops) and uses the smoothing algorithms I noted earlier. Somewhat dissimilarly, a Rhodes piano voice is also listed a SuperNATURAL when it uses samples, transient models (or attack models similar to Roland's virtual arithmetic synthesizers of about 20 years ago), and post processing / smoothing. Adding even more confusion, the analog synthesizer voices, which are constructed entirely of modeled waveforms (no samples) and modeled analog synthesis components (modeled triangle and saw tooth waves, filters, low frequency oscillators, envelopes, and varying degrees of fixed and dynamic modulation routings) are also called... SuperNATURAL! The only voices not called SuperNATURAL (and there are plenty of these) are sample based voices that use loops.

So what does SuperNATURAL mean? The best I can come up with is it's a catch-all phrase that means "for a given situation, we'll use whatever synthesis techniques we think are best suited". In other words, in terms of actual architecture, the phrase SuperNATURAL means nothing at all. It is indeed pure marketing hype. About the only thing one can take away from an instrument (or voice) labeled SuperNATURAL is this is Roland's current best attempt at synthesizing that kind of sound.

Historically and ironically, it seems SuperNATURAL came about after the phenomenal results Roland achieved in the V-Piano. The V-Piano implements its sound entirely with modeled components (no samples) and the result is the best sounding, most playable digital piano I've ever played. However, due to the expensive hardware architecture required for the V-Piano, Roland decided to use inferior and cheaper technology (samples with smoothing) in their lesser digital pianos. Roland called this inferior technology SuperNATURAL. Do you see the irony?

So again I ask, what does SuperNATURAL mean? It means different things in different instruments. In V-Drums, contrary to what many people here on the forum think, it means samples and post processing. In fact, whatever limited modeling Roland did in V-Drums before SuperNATURAL branded modules is now being replaced with samples only. This is why, in the TD-30, many of the newer "bank A" sounds cannot be modified. (i.e. The snare throwoff cannot be turned off. Sympathetic snare resonance in toms cannot be adjusted. And so on.) Those attributes, which were previously modeled, are now baked into the samples and thus cannot be changed.

Not meaning to be argumentative, but I don't think that chart ("V-Drums SuperNATURAL Sounds") means much. For example, given that behaviour modeling adjusts aspects of synthesis, it would likely come somewhere inside the SuperNATURAL engine, not before the engine, as shown. The Room Ambience component is also placed in a questionable location. This is a post processing effect typically applied at the end of the signal chain. It's unlikely this would occur before the SuperNATURAL engine. Whoever created this chart seemingly created it for marketing purposes rather than as a literal architecture diagram. From an architectural standpoint, it doesn't make much sense when you consider the synthesis techniques and signal flows.

[Dbraz1976]

Wow. Thank you so much for your responses. I have a steep learning curve on v drums so I have had a lot of reading to do. I do not want an acoustic kit at all so I am passed that as an option with mesh heads. On the Roland kits I was amazed how much better the TD12 sounds with the Superior Drummer. A later post on the latency improvements on Roland's latest V drums is a real consideration. I think this could contribute to feel. Perhaps I should consider upping my budget and going for a later kit. I am guessing the TD30 is far more future proof given what is included in the module, PS, larger drums etc. I'll have to give this some serious thought.

[grog]

I don't think you need to up your budget if you're looking to use a TD-12 to trigger Superior Drummer. I've recorded stuff for years first on an exp TD-10, then on my TD-12 and have never had latency issues.

https://www.digitaldrummermag.com

https://www.dauphinehotel.com

[perceval]

Yep, buying a TD30 just to trigger Superior or any other VSTs is a bit overkill. If you need all the inputs a TD30 would provide, check out the Megadrum module.

[jpsquared482]

I'd get two TD-11s used for about $800 before I'd get a TD-30 if all you're doing is triggering VSTs. You'll save a good deal of dough. Of course this will only work if you have a Mac and do a MIDI Aggregation: http://support.apple.com/en-us/HT1215