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Two Rides on TD 30?

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  • Two Rides on TD 30?

    Hay guys, I just bought a cy15r to replace my cy12r.

    I just wanted another crash really and thought I'd get the 15 ride and then have my old spare ride as back up and just play it as a crash.
    Then I got to think, maybe I can get the bell to work on the old ride and have two rides on my td30, yee haa!
    So I plugged in the old cy12r into one Aux slot for bow and edge and the bell into Aux two, but the dame thing just miss fires, Hit the bell and get bow sound + sometimes bell or edge sound and other combinations.

    I then thought maybe its because I was using two stereo cables, so switched one to a mono cable, but nada, same thing.
    Is it possible to have two ride on the td 30? I noticed the dedicated ride out jacks are marked ride and edge, so I thought aux 1= ride/ bow and aux 2 = edge, but no.
    Any help would be super cool because two rides would be super cool.
    Cheers Leeroy, aka Hemi245
    Last edited by Hemi245; 07-08-14, 06:37 AM.
    Roland td-9kx2 gear, on the 8th oct 2013 will have td-30 module, 3 X pd 85, 2x pd 105, v 11 hihat, kd 9, 2x 12yc, 1x 13cr, pm 30 monitor, double pedal(suck at these), vex kit masters 50 and naturals so far. Now have Vex Strike and td 30, wooh hoo !

  • #2
    From the Roland Wiki:

    Three-way (piezo/switch/switch) inputs can be used to connect a three-way cymbal like the CY-12R/C, CY-13R or CY-15R, or one non-three-way pad. On the TD-4, TD-10 with TDW-1, TD-20, TD-30 and TMC-6, three-way cymbals can be connected using two designated Piezo/Switch inputs. Connecting them to any two stereo inputs on any module works with some limitations and is not officially supported.
    8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
    http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

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    • #3
      Thanks Dan, I think you just said its not gonna work hay, or at least very well, bummer.
      I thought the bell could be on one of the aux's in mono and the edge and bow on another aux in stereo imput.
      It works fine if you just use it as a crash, two triggers, but plug the bell in and crosstalk and stuff.
      Thanks anyway, Leeroy,,,Dam two rides be so cool.
      Roland td-9kx2 gear, on the 8th oct 2013 will have td-30 module, 3 X pd 85, 2x pd 105, v 11 hihat, kd 9, 2x 12yc, 1x 13cr, pm 30 monitor, double pedal(suck at these), vex kit masters 50 and naturals so far. Now have Vex Strike and td 30, wooh hoo !

      Comment


      • #4
        You have them plugged in correctly, you just haven't changed the right sound settings.

        So, RIDE -> AUX1; EDGE -> AUX2.

        You need to set the sounds as follows:

        AUX1 main (ride hit): OFF (NO SOUND)
        AUX1 rim (bell hit): BELL SOUND
        AUX2 main (ride hit): RIDE SOUND
        AUX2 rim (edge hit): EDGE SOUND

        Now, the only thing that doesn't make this seamless is that when you hit the ride bell, the main ride sound will also sound - but use the same set of ride sounds, and make sure the pitches on the bell and bow are the same, then experiment with the trigger curves (try exp1 with a slightly raised sensitivity instead of linear), and it should be possible to make the ride sound 'disappear' into the bell hits.

        (PS - do not try to be clever with crosstalk settings, you'll just make things worse. The above should work using the CY12 defaults on each input. Crosstalk is irrelevant with this sort of setup because it's the same trigger going into each input - the more you use the crosstalk to try and cancel the signals, the more the signal gets cancelled!)
        Last edited by flurbs; 07-09-14, 07:29 AM.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks flurbs I will give those settings a good try today and see how I go. I will post back when I get some results.
          One of my strike sets I got the ride/ bell combo just right, and another set just right too, but would like both on my dream set and play between them.
          Thanks again ,,Leeroy
          Roland td-9kx2 gear, on the 8th oct 2013 will have td-30 module, 3 X pd 85, 2x pd 105, v 11 hihat, kd 9, 2x 12yc, 1x 13cr, pm 30 monitor, double pedal(suck at these), vex kit masters 50 and naturals so far. Now have Vex Strike and td 30, wooh hoo !

          Comment


          • #6
            Flurbs, your bloods worth bottling, your a Genious. I set everything up just the way you said and WAH LAH, Presto, Bingo.
            Got my 15r just right, and now the older 12yr/c next to it with my other favourite bell/ ride/ edge sounds from another vex kit.
            Really very happy indeed. Got to go and tweak a little more and smack some tunes,,,Yee Haa!
            Cheers from Australia,,Leeroy.

            P.s Someone might want to move this thread to a better place, like Tech or something.
            Roland td-9kx2 gear, on the 8th oct 2013 will have td-30 module, 3 X pd 85, 2x pd 105, v 11 hihat, kd 9, 2x 12yc, 1x 13cr, pm 30 monitor, double pedal(suck at these), vex kit masters 50 and naturals so far. Now have Vex Strike and td 30, wooh hoo !

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Hemi245 View Post
              Flurbs, your bloods worth bottling, your a Genious.
              No worries! Wait until you see my NEXT trick... ;-)

              Comment


              • #8
                So flubs, will these same settings work with 2 CY15Rs on a TDW20? I just built a kit around that module for my brother and it has CY15Rs.
                8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
                http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

                Comment


                • #9
                  Hemi245,

                  I've experimented in detail to get two three-zone rides working on the TD-30 with no extra TMI (trigger to MIDI interface) boxes. With just cables and settings in the TD-30, it will not work, even when you do as someone suggested by setting some of the triggers to "no sound". There are various reasons for this, but the bottom line is the TD-30 doesn't process the extra trigger signals properly. The best solution I've come up with is documented in the thread below. This solution works really well, provides three zones for both cymbals, and triggers better than the CY-15Rs did on their own. Here's the thread:

                  Roland BT-1 Review and Three-Zone Ride Solution
                  http://www.vdrums.com/forum/general/...-ride-solution

                  Last edited by TangTheHump; 12-18-14, 01:07 AM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by fulrmr(Daniel) View Post
                    So flubs, will these same settings work with 2 CY15Rs on a TDW20? I just built a kit around that module for my brother and it has CY15Rs.
                    I believe it will - the TDW20 and TD30 are so similar you should be able to set them up using AUX1 and AUX2 just as I've outlined above.

                    With reference to Tangs comments, it's not seamless and it won't get you the 'proper' performance from using the 2-socket-dedicated-3-way-ride setup from the main ride - but I would think you can tweak the setting to get it satisfactory. (Sorry Tang).

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by flurbs View Post

                      I believe it will - the TDW20 and TD30 are so similar you should be able to set them up using AUX1 and AUX2 just as I've outlined above.

                      With reference to Tangs comments, it's not seamless and it won't get you the 'proper' performance from using the 2-socket-dedicated-3-way-ride setup from the main ride - but I would think you can tweak the setting to get it satisfactory. (Sorry Tang).
                      Cool, thanks. I got it set up using the CY15 setting but I still have to dial it in as you suggested. It's not perfect but it will suffice for now. This is my last major piece of Roland gear I have and it's just been sitting for a couple of years now since I got the 2Box modules so I'll probly just let him "learn" the tricks ...especially since he'll just be triggering midi via Pro Tools in the studio.
                      8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
                      http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Flurbs and Hemi245,

                        Flurbs wrote:
                        With reference to Tang's comments, it's not seamless and it won't get you the "proper" performance from using the 2-socket-dedicated-3-way-ride setup from the main ride, but I would think you can tweak the setting to get it satisfactory. (Sorry Tang.)
                        I apologize if it seems I'm tooting my own horn, but I've spent many hours debugging this problem and considering solutions. The approach you outlined yields numerous problems and semi-reliable performance. The problems are: (1) you still have two extraneous trigger signals being processed by the TD-30 (one with the "no sound" instrument and the other, the bow, when playing the bell or edge), and (2) there is duplicate bow audio when playing the bell or edge, and this causes phase problems and other unwanted audio artifacts. You can somewhat deal with the audio problems using the trigger settings, mixer, and instrument voices as you outlined, but that still doesn't provide seamless performance.

                        The bigger problem is the extraneous trigger signals. These are still sent through MIDI so if you're using the TD-30 with an external DAW, those signals create extra data that must be mapped / filtered out of the MIDI stream or deleted after the fact. The situation is worse with the TD-30's internal sequencer. That sequencer is already extremely short of RAM (read: very limited note capacity). The extraneous trigger signals cause the rides to produce four times the MIDI data actually needed so you run out of internal sequencing space that much faster.

                        Outside the triggering problems, there is the inherent lack of bell sensitivity in Roland's cymbals. Unless you strike the bell firmly with the shoulder of a stick, the bell doesn't trigger. Even with firm strikes with the shoulder, bell triggering is somewhat unreliable.

                        So... all of this lead me to move away from Roland's three-way triggering setup and away from the bells of Roland's cymbals. Fundamentally, the TD-30 handles two triggers per input source. And, in the case of cymbals, every input has two-way intelligence to mute the bow when an edge trigger is detected. Thus, I decided to work within those limitations. By adding separate bell triggers (in my case, using the BT-1 as a pseudo-DIY solution), I can add as many three-way cymbals as inputs allow.

                        I no longer use the one paired three-way input Roland provides in the traditional way. Rather, I disable three-way triggering on all inputs and set up the main ride exactly the same as extra ride cymbals (with the bow and edge processed by one input, and the bell only processed by another input). Without custom cables, each cymbal uses two inputs. Using custom cables and splitting bell inputs, you can bring that down to one-and-a-half inputs for each three-way cymbal.

                        The beauty of this solution is it:
                        1.) Provides flawless and proper three-way triggering on ALL cymbals set up this way.
                        2.) Yields better bell sensitivity than any Roland cymbal out-of-the-box.
                        3.) Handles the extraneous triggers / MIDI data problem (there is / are none in this setup).
                        4.) Handles the audio artifacts problems (there are none in this setup).
                        5.) Allows as many three-way cymbals as desired within the number of inputs available.


                        The increased bell sensitivity (alone) is worth the price of admission. I can play fast cascara patterns, flams, double stoke rolls, and pretty much any note grouping at any dynamic level (from ppp to fff), with the tips, shoulders, butt ends, or any part of the sticks. The three-way triggering is one hundred percent reliable at all dynamic levels. Honestly, Roland should adopt this solution or update the triggering technology in their modules to handle proper three-way triggering on all inputs. As it stands, I'd never go back to Roland's current three-way triggering. My own solution works much better.

                        Once again, I'll paste in the link so you can read about the solutions I considered and how I arrived at my current solution:

                        Roland BT-1 Review and Three-Zone Ride Solution
                        http://www.vdrums.com/forum/general/...-ride-solution

                        Last edited by TangTheHump; 12-18-14, 01:13 PM.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Hi Tang,

                          I appreciate everything you said, and seeing as your solution works for you then that's great.

                          Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                          The problems are: (1) you still have two extraneous trigger signals being processed by the TD-30 (one with the "no sound" instrument and the other, the bow, when playing the bell or edge)...
                          This is true but it is only a problem if the user has incorrect crosstalk settings between the two channels. With the crosstalk turned completely off, it makes no difference whether the module is processing two of exactly the same signal or ten of exactly the same signal - all that matters is that it processes ONE of them assigned to the ride sound whilst the other signal(s) are assigned to the 'off' sound. If control is needed to prevent false triggering from other pads then the threshold parameter can be increased a little without affecting performance.


                          Originally posted by TangTheHump View Post
                          ... and (2) there is duplicate bow audio when playing the bell or edge, and this causes phase problems and other unwanted audio artifacts.
                          I have not experienced this. Phase occurs when THE SAME SOUND destructively interferes with itself. That's why one bow signal is assigned to OFF. If the two box signals are assigned to the same sound, then yes, there will be phase problems. That's why I said to assign one to OFF. The other caveat that I also stated about my connection suggestions is that the bow sound will still fire when the bell is played, so - and I quote - "use the same set of ride sounds, and make sure the pitches on the bell and bow are the same, then experiment with the trigger curves (try exp1 with a slightly raised sensitivity instead of linear), and it should be possible to make the ride sound 'disappear' into the bell hits."

                          Clearly there are limitations with the Roland cymbals, and further problems if you take the MIDI chain outside the module. But if the question is "can I plug a 2nd 3 zone ride into my module and make it work satisfactorily with the module" then the answer IMO is yes - and my info above is how it's done...


                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Flurbs,

                            Interesting debate. :-)

                            The reason I say destructive audio artifacts occur when having the bell and bow (or edge and bow) playing together is, even if they're from the same voice set, the different models / samples have slightly different phase relationships. Sometimes you may not notice this, but I sure did with various voice sets I tried. It's true though that sometimes the two voices do blend and enhance one another. One must determine this through trial and error. The part I like less in this solution is altering the trigger curves. Sure, you can do things like invert the velocity curves so the bell is super sensitive with low strikes and the harder you play, the bell sound becomes louder and the bow sound becomes lower. However, those response curves are active the other way around, too! No matter how you slice it, you no longer have even trigger response for the bell and bow. I experimented with this a lot and the best I could achieve was lowering the bow sound such that the bell could be heard above it, but the bell was still somewhat buried.

                            Regarding processing extra trigger signals, in principle, it doesn't matter how many extra trigger signals the TD-30 processes because you can assign them to the "no sound" instrument. Thus, one doesn't hear the duplicate triggers. However, that only works if you're not using the internal sequencer or an external sequencer. As soon as a sequencer comes into play, those extra MIDI notes (both the "no sound" notes and the "dialed under bow sound" notes) cause all kinds of havoc. The TD-30's internal sequencer *does* see these notes and it records them, wasting valuable sequencing space. Ditto when working with an external sequencer or mapping to VSTi instruments. I use the TD-30's internal sequencer every day so a solution that loads it down isn't feasible. I dare say that's the case for a reasonable number of users - basically, anyone who uses the sequencer regularly.

                            Hey, I'm not trying to take approaches away, but I am interested in sharing the pros and cons of various solutions. After experimenting with a number of approaches, I decided some help via different triggering configurations (like the triggers I added) or Roland's TMI box (trigger to MIDI interface with support for up to three three-zone rides) were the most effective solutions. The "TD-30 only" approaches all resulted in a less than adequate solution... at least for my needs. Outside the trigger configuration issues, the fact the bells of Roland's cymbals don't trigger very reliably throws another wrench into the works. That's why I decided to replace the bells altogether. It wasn't only "how to get multiple three-zone rides" that I was concerned about. Rather, my scope included that problem and fixing / replacing the bell triggers.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              So you can hear the results, here is an audio sample of the CY15R with a BT-1 stacked on top for bell triggering. Setup is as I described in my thread. Notice there is no cross-talk between the CY15R and the BT-1; it's not an issue. Also, notice how I can play fast, light patterns in all zones with perfect triggering. It's difficult to play patterns like that with only a CY15R because the CY15R's bell triggering isn't reliable enough and sensitive enough.

                              TD-30 Three Zone Triggering using CY-15R and BT-1
                              https://soundcloud.com/jonusfringe/t...e-zone/s-Mpckc


                              Side note: The bass drum has a subsonic center to its attack that doesn't come through on small computer speakers. Thus, if you can't hear the bass drum, try listening on larger speakers. The bass drum comes through great on my audiophile headphones, but is non-existent on my laptop speakers.
                              Last edited by TangTheHump; 12-19-14, 03:13 PM.

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