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What differences between different audio interface brands and effects on latency?

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  • #16
    Originally posted by haluksarisel View Post
    To perceval:
    Unfortunately, despite some audio interfaces like Roland Rubix 22 or Mackie Onyx Producer 2x2 having a midi-out and a midi-in, 2i2 doesn't have a direct midi-in to my knowledge. So, I have to connect the module to the PC using a USB cable like you said if I decide to buy a 2i2 otherwise, I won't be able to get the midi notes from the module.

    Yeah, the TD-17 has its own drivers, and I also connected it to the PC and installed its drivers. Already, I'm using my TD-17's headphone output when using the SD3 and the ASIO4ALL. So, I've been using my module as an audio interface. It's the best way to get the sound, for now.
    My bad, I searched for the 2i2 but Google showed me the 4i4, which has the MIDI in and out.

    DO NOT use ASIO4ALL with the Roland TD17 as an interface. Use Roland's own drivers.

    ASIO4ALL is a band-aid solution that people will use if they absolutely have nothing else.

    Why do you say your PC will not receive MIDI notes from the module using the USB cable? Of course it will.
    It's a 2-way communication. The module will send the MIDI notes to the PC (SD3) and receive audio to send to the headphones output of the TD17, on the same USB cable.
    DTX700, eDRUMin 4+10, A2E Dixon kit, Yamaha cymbals, FSR HH
    Kit Pix http://vdrums.com/forum/album.php?albumid=613

    My new venture, HiEnd Speakers. : voglosounds.com

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    • #17
      To perceval:
      I think there is something misunderstanding. I can already connect my TD-17 using a USB cable without any problem. The fact which I tried to tell you is that if I buy a 2i2, I cannot connect my module's MIDI-OUT directly to the 2i2, but I can connect the module using a USB cable as I did. There is no issue. And also, as you said, it's not necessary to get a midi note via using an audio interface because the TD-17 can do it with itself. The thing I wonder was how I can use an audio interface with a drum module, but I got the answer with your and others' messages.

      Unfortunately, only using the TD-17 caused a little bit of latency, which I had explained in my first message. To some extent, ASIO4ALL solved my latency problem at least, but it wasn't enough. Therefore I started to research buying an audio interface.

      As far as I understand, I don't need audio interfaces' line-in if I won't use sound samples of the module and record with them. My intention is just to hear SD3 while playing the drum without latency. So, as Kabonfaiba said, I just only need a decent audio interface or less than ideal. So, just a Behringer U-Phoria UMC22 or a Behringer U-Phoria UMC2 or a cheaper one is enough to reduce the latency? I don't expect any other from an audio interface.
      Last edited by haluksarisel; 11-19-21, 06:47 AM.

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      • #18
        The problem with the UM2 and UMC22 is that Behringer use ASIO4ALL as their official driver - that's a red flag imo.

        An actual driver from Behringer that has had at least some R&D doesn't start till you get the U-Phoria UMC202HD. So I would only recommend this as a minimum.
        ◾ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ◾ 2box DrumIt 5 MKII
        ◾ Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ◾ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ◾ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring ◾ Pearl THMP-1
        PA Comparison Sheet

        Comment


        • #19
          I do recommend the Scarlett. I have a TD-17 slave module, two eDRUMin (for triggering) and an alesis strike multipad. My audio interface is a Scarlett 18i8. In order for the TD-17 slave module for be hosted by eDRUMin I use the “generic” TD-17 USB driver setting (MIDI only, no audio). All of the MIDI devices are hosted on the eDRUMin 10’s USB host port. The eDRUMin 10 USB’s connection to the laptop is all that is required, for MIDI.

          With respect to audio, I like the ease of Bluetooth so I have TD-17 master L and R outs connected to the Scarlett’s analog in 1 and 2. I have the alesis strike multipad master outs L and R connected to the Scarlett’s line in. At first I had the analog signals routed directly from the In to the outputs on Scarlett so I didn’t need to use a DAW. (Sometimes I play TD-17 module sounds when my laptop, shared with family, is unavailable). What I noticed was processed music, like from an album, would distort above a certain gain. It wasn’t the main bit of music that would distort but the extra stuff in a song (like a live album and the crowd ambient noise). That really annoyed me, so I switched to routing the analog in to the DAW and back through the scarlet to the monitor and headphones. The distortion was gone. The alesis strike multipad doesn’t really have this issue, but most of that analog audio is backing tracks and instruments that don’t have all of the extra stuff a mp3 of an album has.

          I still recommend the Scarlett, but I do think if playing along to an album using Td-17 Bluetooth then USB audio in to your DAW would be better than analog in through the Scarlett. In my situation I use abelton live and I can select a different/independent audio in from the audio out. Assuming you have the same option. The audio in would be the TD-17 and the audio out would be the Scarlett.
          Last edited by Dadwrshpdrum; 11-19-21, 09:43 AM.
          TD-17KVX, PD-125BK snare, PDX-100 Tom, PDX-12 Toms, PDX-8 Toms, CY-5 splash, CY-15R ride, CY-13R China. eDRUMin 10 with TD-17 slave module. Combo VEX Series 3 And Designer. 2013 MacBook Pro (16gb RAM and 1TB SSD). SSD5.5 and EZD2. Abelton Live. Alesis Strike Multipad with Alesis RealHat pedal and Boss FS-6.

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          • #20
            Thank you so much for your replies, my friend. These really opened my mind to how I do use an audio interface. I'll weigh your words.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Anyware View Post
              Just adding the standard comment that acoustic drums also have latency, because the audio they produce travels at approximately 1 foot per millisecond. So if your kick drum is 4-5 feet from your ears, you're already experiencing 5ms of "latency."
              Of course but that's the absolute worst case scenario on an acoustic kit. A snare will be 2-3ms and also the snare is typically the drum where you will most easily notice the latency.

              With edrums the worst case scenario with a snare will be a hit close to the edge. The hit will take maybe 1.8ms to reach the sensor and start the scan time (the vibrations propagate like a wave). Scan time with a roland will be typically 2ms but stuff like the edrumin may require up to 2.9ms for all it's features to work properly. Then the MIDI signal will have a small amount of latency before it even enters the PC so you may be looking at 5ms before the midi signal even enters the computer. Even more with high scan times.

              So obviously if you want to get as close as possible to the feel of hitting something that's making a sound (and not just low enough until it doesn't bother you) you want the latency to be as close to the acoustic counterpart as possible.

              IMO the feel is different with extremely low latencies. With medium latencies the drum head feels kind of soft and sluggish even if you can't hear an obvious flam. I think it's because the sound comes at a different depth in the mesh head.

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              • #22
                To add some additional perspective, if you are using a 60hz monitor to view this page. Your mouse latency is consistently taking 16.7ms for your movements to change the pixels on your screen (on average)

                On 144hz monitors it's 6.9ms (on average) and there is a very noticeable difference in feel.

                So while we are talking about very tiny latencies around 2ms to 5ms (presuming the measurements are accurate) we are very much in the range whereby you would not notice anything visually. However, I think keeping the total latency under 12ms should be the maximum tolerated as it's horrid using 60hz monitors after living at 144hz, but you can adjust!

                So improving on 12ms will make your VST feel better to play with an investment into quality audio equipment and headphones. Anything over 16ms RTL is in the "there is a problem" category.

                From my research, the UMC202HD should net you 9ms at buffer of 64 (if you have a good CPU - this buffer size shouldn't be a problem) but saying that, it's never going to feel like a Roland module without using the higher end audio interfaces (that can do 4ms at 64) but it puts you in the acceptable range imo with very little money spent in the grand scheme.
                Last edited by Kabonfaiba; 11-20-21, 12:50 PM.
                ◾ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ◾ 2box DrumIt 5 MKII
                ◾ Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ◾ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ◾ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring ◾ Pearl THMP-1
                PA Comparison Sheet

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kabonfaiba View Post
                  To add some additional perspective, if you are using a 60hz monitor to view this page. Your mouse latency is consistently taking 16.7ms for your movements to change the pixels on your screen (on average)

                  On 144hz monitors it's 6.9ms (on average) and there is a very noticeable difference in feel.

                  So while we are talking about very tiny latencies around 2ms to 5ms (presuming the measurements are accurate) we are very much in the range whereby you would not notice anything visually. However, I think keeping the total latency under 12ms should be the maximum tolerated as it's horrid using 60hz monitors after living at 144hz, but you can adjust!

                  So improving on 12ms will make your VST feel better to play with an investment into quality audio equipment and headphones. Anything over 16ms RTL is in the "there is a problem" category.

                  From my research, the UMC202HD should net you 9ms at buffer of 64 (if you have a good CPU - this buffer size shouldn't be a problem) but saying that, it's never going to feel like a Roland module without using the higher end audio interfaces (that can do 4ms at 64) but it puts you in the acceptable range imo with very little money spent in the grand scheme.
                  Please note that with edrums you only really get the output latency.

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                  • #24
                    I've just bought a used Roland Rubix 22 for 106,00 EUR. I think it will be enough for years to come. I don't want to buy a 2i2 and its used versions were expensive. Thank you for your advice.

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                    • #25
                      Nice, Rubix is relatively new, introduced after the UA series. It should be good but there is basically no data to go on.

                      It would really help if you share some results from this ASIO latency tester https://centrance.com/driverfolder/CE_LTU_37.zip - No installation necessary, just run and get some test data. e.g.

                      Buffer Size [32, 48, 64, 96, 128] samples (#.##ms)
                      Sample rate: 44100hz
                      Measurement results: ### samples / #.## ms

                      So set your buffer size, then post the figures in bold. (Close the program when changing the buffer size the driver settings)

                      Also let us know what buffer size you were able to run your VST without crashes or audio pops / glitches as that's also key information.
                      ◾ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ◾ 2box DrumIt 5 MKII
                      ◾ Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ◾ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ◾ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring ◾ Pearl THMP-1
                      PA Comparison Sheet

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        To Kabonfaiba:
                        I've just got the Rubix 22. Unfortunately, I couldn't use the program that you wrote above. but I got some data using CakeWalk:

                        1.png

                        This is the lowest setting of the Rubix Control Panel and I didn't get a crash with them when I use the SD3. My CPU is also 4790K on 4.4 GHz.

                        The interesting thing is that I can get lower latency if I use directly the module:

                        2.png
                        This is the lowest setting of the TD-17, but I didn't test using the SD3 yet. -

                        In the SD3 with Rubix 22, I got this:

                        3.png

                        In the SD3 with TD-17, I got this:
                        4.png

                        But as I said above, I didn't test the SD3 with this setting using the TD-17.

                        The Rubix gave me a powerful headphone-out which I'd not found while using DirectSound or the TD-17. Before the Rubix, even I turn all volumes up, I couldn't hear the drum samples clearly because the impact sound was too much louder than them. Now I started to enjoy it.

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                        • #27
                          haluksarisel Thanks for sharing that. The figures look a little sus if I'm honest, but I'm glad the volume made a positive difference, does SD3 feel better to play through the Rubix then? If the figures are accurate your latency didn't really change from the TD-17.

                          You might need to lower input sensitivity to -24dB on the CEntrance test utility to get a reading. Your headphones / speakers should pop when you hit Measure! So it needs the volume up to a medium level.
                          ◾ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ◾ 2box DrumIt 5 MKII
                          ◾ Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ◾ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ◾ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring ◾ Pearl THMP-1
                          PA Comparison Sheet

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            To Kabonfaiba:
                            Yes, my latency didn't change than before, but as I said, the volume has incredibly increased with the Rubix 22.

                            Unfortunately, the CEntrance didn't work for me. I guess I have to connect a 6.35 cable to line-in to analogue-out, but I don't have the cable. If I get the cable someday, I'll try.

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