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Acceptable latency with Asio

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  • #16
    Fair enough, but I think the reality is that most people starting to dabble with VSTs buy consumer-grade USB audio interfaces to use with a computer they already own, or don't use exclusively for audio tasks requiring low latency. So if you want to work with what you've got, and what you've got is a USB interface, the only way to improve performance is via OS tuning. I don't think crackling at a 256 buffer size is normal at all, USB or no USB - it should perform well at half that at least.

    absolutely not necessary, since over 14 there are professional devices which never ever had these drawbacks, this is the real scandal....
    It could also be argued that Windows should have overcome audio latency problems many years ago, forcing you to buy expensive PCIe sound cards to compensate for a software problem that Linux and Mac overcame at least 15 years ago... Why aren't you scandalised about that?

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    • #17
      Let me just chip in with a couple of interesting observations from the past couple of days.
      I've noticed a few causes of crackling:
      - when I forget to turn on the power switch at the cable and the laptop runs on battery. Must be some system setting that affects the performance.
      - when there's something on the screen that updates a lot, i.e. midi monitor window expanded, or a mixer. This I should still confirm because the reason above may have been causing it but the crackling definitively stopped when collapsing the MIDI monitor or switching back from the mixer view.

      These are not definitive conclusions yet. Still need more time to observe the cause-effect relationship between different elements.

      Edit: I'm using the minimum size on ASIO (32, I believe) and both with ASIO for Windows, and TD-11 as an ASIO device, getting less than 4ms reported in both of the values in the ASIO window. Sorry, don't have these nearby now, to provide accurate information.
      Last edited by alensiljak; 10-13-20, 06:58 AM.
      TD-11 + TD-4 with a few pads and cymbals.
      https://www.vdrums.com/forum/perform...44011-my-kit-s
      https://osim.wikidot.com

      Comment


      • #18
        Originally posted by ignotus View Post
        Fair enough, but I think the reality is that most people starting to dabble with VSTs buy consumer-grade USB audio interfaces to use with a computer they already own, or don't use exclusively for audio tasks requiring low latency. So if you want to work with what you've got, and what you've got is a USB interface, the only way to improve performance is via OS tuning. I don't think crackling at a 256 buffer size is normal at all, USB or no USB - it should perform well at half that at least.


        It could also be argued that Windows should have overcome audio latency problems many years ago, forcing you to buy expensive PCIe sound cards to compensate for a software problem that Linux and Mac overcame at least 15 years ago... Why aren't you scandalised about that?


        to tell the truth these usb horrible low latency problems did not exist led before usb was used for audio, it was propelled by intel and Microsoft....
        Rme warned even to implement usb for sound interfaces 16? ago, they reluctantly offered usb quite late....

        usb = plug and pray still, only for the tuning nerds

        again it is silly cheap, look for frank Zappa solution here in the forum, you even get a sufficient pc for free....

        usb is simply bull**** for audio

        Funny asking for "acceptable" latency, why not “best latency” available available below 500 Euro used! (pc and Interface)
        Last edited by Ribot; 10-13-20, 09:19 AM.
        Desktop PC I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, RME AIO, RME ADI2pro, RME Digiface USB, Mac Air 2014, Zoom Tac2r, Apollo Twin MKI Solo TD30, Vh13, Drum Tec pro pads, BFD3, Henry Hirsch, Peter Erskine, Evil Drums, Superior 3.0, Decades, Cubase 10, Reaper, Ludwig 67 Kit all sizes from 22, Ludwig Cob, 4*14, Slingerland 50s, Paiste Modern Ess, Zildjian Constantinople

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        • #19
          I have to agree with Ignotus - you should be able to get well under 256 samples with even a low end interface. My cheap Zoom USB interface can easily handle 64 samples in Win10 on a 2012 laptop.
          ATV aDrums, ATV aD5, eDRUMin, Presonus Quantum 2, SD3

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          • #20
            It sounds like you have power management enabled. You need to set it to high performance and edit it to make sure nothing turns off. Don’t run it on battery either or it will change its performance mode if you don’t fix it. The moving things on the screen is more worrying as this could be to do with the graphics driver. I would still recommend 16gig ram as I bet the graphics is also sharing memory.

            I agree pci interfaces tend to be the best. My old terratec ews88mt was great and gave me low latency years ago. I then had a FireWire Yamaha n12 which still allowed below 10ms at 64. It would however struggle if I had multiple vst instruments running. I’m using a zoom l-20 as I take it out to record live bands. I was going to keep the Yamaha but the L-20 managed to have the same level of performance. With my new i9 pc with 32gig ram I can run huge projects at 64 buffers stable. In fact I run at 64 all the time. It will go to 32 but I can’t tell the difference in latency so no point. This is a usb device and is totally stable. I can’t go with the usb is cr*p scenario because it isn’t. Also the op has already got a pc and an audio interface which should be capable enough. What is needed is sensible advise on what can be done without dumping it all which is extreme to say the very least.
            Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Ribot View Post

              Can you stream you tube or I tunes simultaneously playing vdrums drums crackle free, ez drummer, Bfd3 or Superior 3.0? I really doubt that....mostly only possible with small buffer with Pci express...
              No, that's why I'm using other devices for YouTube, VideoSurgeon and Google Play Music which are my sources for lessons and play alongs. I daisy chain them into my UMC202HD's input 1 and 2. (Phone via 3.5mm into mic input on Dell Vostro laptop - heaphone output of Dell Vostro laptop into UMC202HD). Everything sounds good with my KZ KS10's.
              Last edited by dsteinschneider; 10-13-20, 01:59 PM.
              Ludwig Accent 5 piece kit | UFO Drums ebridges, 3 ply mesh heads and rim protectors | Yamaha PCY135 on Ludwig stand with DIY hall effect sensor | Yamaha PCY155 ride | DIY Pintech 2 zone crashes with Goedrums piezo's - Myrk membranes| eDRUMin ED10 | Cantabile VST host | Superior Drummer and Jamstix kits | Alto TS115a monitors | IK ARC 3

              Comment


              • #22
                Originally posted by ignotus View Post
                the only way to improve performance is via OS tuning. I don't think crackling at a 256 buffer size is normal at all, USB or no USB - it should perform well at half that at least.
                That is so true, search "Glitch Free" by Brad Robinson. Turn off all the advanced power management, CPU throttling etc. My 2012 Lenovo with 16GB can load 6GB kits at 48k/64 buffers and play without a hitch.

                Originally posted by ignotus View Post
                It could also be argued that Windows should have overcome audio latency problems many years ago, forcing you to buy expensive PCIe sound cards to compensate for a software problem that Linux and Mac overcame at least 15 years ago... Why aren't you scandalised about that?
                I'm in IT and have been studying the genesis of the micro computer industry and recently found out that Bill Gates' mom was on the board of United Way with John Opel, president of IBM in the 80's. She complained to him that her son dropped out of school and seemed to be floundering in Albuquerque and asked if can he do something to help. That got me thinking about how the company never innovated and was a predatory competitor. I'm red pilled now on what garbage Microsoft has been all these years. The more you look at it the more you realize all the problems over the years were pretty much from incompetence and lack of vision.

                https://www.cnbc.com/2020/08/05/how-...microsoft.html
                Last edited by dsteinschneider; 10-13-20, 02:13 PM.
                Ludwig Accent 5 piece kit | UFO Drums ebridges, 3 ply mesh heads and rim protectors | Yamaha PCY135 on Ludwig stand with DIY hall effect sensor | Yamaha PCY155 ride | DIY Pintech 2 zone crashes with Goedrums piezo's - Myrk membranes| eDRUMin ED10 | Cantabile VST host | Superior Drummer and Jamstix kits | Alto TS115a monitors | IK ARC 3

                Comment


                • #23
                  Just tried to kill occasional glitches with the lynx, there are also probably usb related problems (I use usb midi with the td50 ), tried a different usb port....now it seems stable with 44,1khz at 32 buffer resulting in probably (have to measure it with a mic) 3,7ms RTL (modul and VST!) (which seems a world record in VST drumming right now )....there are some flaws and no goes, will post results, after some weeks..I would not enter a live stage with this buffer size......living on the edge...again no other streaming device like Youtube or Itunes

                  the only way to improve performance is via OS tuning. I don't think crackling at a 256 buffer size is normal at all, USB or no USB - it should perform well at half that at least.
                  It should go at least 128 buffer...try differnt usb ports, wifi is also giving trouble on laptops...also look in graphics card driver....
                  Last edited by Ribot; 10-13-20, 03:34 PM.
                  Desktop PC I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, RME AIO, RME ADI2pro, RME Digiface USB, Mac Air 2014, Zoom Tac2r, Apollo Twin MKI Solo TD30, Vh13, Drum Tec pro pads, BFD3, Henry Hirsch, Peter Erskine, Evil Drums, Superior 3.0, Decades, Cubase 10, Reaper, Ludwig 67 Kit all sizes from 22, Ludwig Cob, 4*14, Slingerland 50s, Paiste Modern Ess, Zildjian Constantinople

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by dsteinschneider View Post

                    No, that's why I'm using other devices for YouTube, VideoSurgeon and Google Play Music which are my sources for lessons and play alongs. I daisy chain them into my UMC202HD's input 1 and 2. (Phone via 3.5mm into mic input on Dell Vostro laptop - heaphone output of Dell Vostro laptop into UMC202HD). Everything sounds good with my KZ KS10's.
                    smart! The reason I am interested in streaming capabilities.....it seems also a hint how stable this setup is to make sessions with other musicians inside a daw....
                    Last edited by Ribot; 10-13-20, 03:22 PM.
                    Desktop PC I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, RME AIO, RME ADI2pro, RME Digiface USB, Mac Air 2014, Zoom Tac2r, Apollo Twin MKI Solo TD30, Vh13, Drum Tec pro pads, BFD3, Henry Hirsch, Peter Erskine, Evil Drums, Superior 3.0, Decades, Cubase 10, Reaper, Ludwig 67 Kit all sizes from 22, Ludwig Cob, 4*14, Slingerland 50s, Paiste Modern Ess, Zildjian Constantinople

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by dsteinschneider View Post

                      I'm in IT and have been studying the genesis of the micro computer industry and recently found out that Bill Gates' mom was on the board of United Way with John Opel, president of IBM in the 80's.
                      I guess you haven't seen this before, then?

                      https://philip.greenspun.com/bg/
                      TD-11 + TD-4 with a few pads and cymbals.
                      https://www.vdrums.com/forum/perform...44011-my-kit-s
                      https://osim.wikidot.com

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Thank you all for your recommendations. I finally been able to to get to 128 without any glitches. I can even play a YouTube video without any trouble.

                        At 64 there's still some crippling but a lot less than before. It's mostly on consecutive kicks.

                        I've tried a lot but what seems to help was to switch power plan to best performance but it wasn't available.

                        To do it select create a new plan and from there base your new plan on best performance.

                        Also when I clicked on the power icon on the task bar I ensured that the slider was to best performance.

                        After that I rebooted.

                        dsteinschneider and Perceval suggested to upgrade ram to 16 but with ezdrummer on, there no much more than 3 to 4 go of ram used. Would it still improve something? I'm not sure since it doesn't seem to use a lot.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Latency depends on many things. PC hardware, OS, audio driver(!), installed software, realtime background tabs (anti virus etc), power management of most laptops cause horrible audio ticks etc..

                          A very good tool is a USB monitoring software and the windows (in case its windows, but in any other case you probably don‘t have any issues with latency) task manager monitor. They show you every time any app or device is executing or processing any task in the background. All these little processings colidate with real time audio processing and need to be compensated with lots of CPU power. For real time audio you should clean your computer drastically. Or have a separate computer for this. Latency with 256 samples is in most cases absolutely noticeable and doesn‘t really make fun to play eDrums. The latency on acoustic drums from the source to the human ear is about 2-3ms. So you can decide by yourself how much delay you can bare compared to a natural acoustic feel. For my experience the noticeable latency starts at about 5-6ms. All above 10ms is not playable in my opinion. But that indeed depends on playing style, too.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by AEHybridDrums View Post
                            Latency with 256 samples is in most cases absolutely noticeable and doesn‘t really make fun to play eDrums.
                            You're absolutely right. But at least one then learns to play ahead of the beat, which is a fantastic thing for a drummer!
                            )
                            TD-11 + TD-4 with a few pads and cymbals.
                            https://www.vdrums.com/forum/perform...44011-my-kit-s
                            https://osim.wikidot.com

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ribot View Post
                              Ok, computer power has an impact to cure things (not really)which are available since 10 years performing better out of the box I.e. Aio with 10 year old pc (bought used for under 500 Euro together) without tuning

                              Can stress this enough, please confirm
                              https://www.gearslutz.com/board/musi...data-base.html


                              Sometimes Vdrums is getting very esoteric, I think it is time for a new latency hunters edition, although it seem only very few fans here of this show, stay tuned....
                              I think I will beat you in low latency soon Ribot, stay tuned

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by AEHybridDrums View Post
                                For my experience the noticeable latency starts at about 5-6ms. All above 10ms is not playable in my opinion.
                                This is a deja-vu: I remember I heard this before. Please check "Latency Hunters, season 3, Twilight of the Gods".


                                frankzappa : hasn' he got to the end of the line? What device will be working properly at 0 - 0.6 ms? I think you'll maybe get the lowest latency ever at the event horizon of a black hole.

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