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The Latency Hunters, second edition, the real deal, USB MIDI vs old Midi DIN Cable

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  • #16
    Originally posted by Nick74 View Post

    It was the direct channel exclusively! All OH and Amb muted.
    Ah the bastards

    Total latency: 6.5 ms with DIN; 5,5 ms using USB midi (TD50 --> "Generic" Mode).

    I guess it was the default TD50 setting of the floor tom (rim midi note 58) - (Scan: 2.0 ms !? --> Ribot, please confirm).
    Ah I got the numbers mixed up. So should be 3ms from pad to computer. This makes very much sense. Has anyone measured the latency of the TD50 from pad hit to headphones?

    I'd be curious to know what latency you get in the module. My guess is about 3.5ms as the lowest latency to play an audio sample with hardware that I know of is the Bela microcontroller and is 0.5ms. Roland must have similar technology in their module.

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    • #17
      MIDI-buffer-jitter-jitter.png
      The problem with USB MIDI has always been the MIDI jitter ( inconstant latency).
      But if you don't use a DAW for musical projects, this is not an issue.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Vie-de-Rhum View Post
        MIDI-buffer-jitter-jitter.png
        The problem with USB MIDI has always been the MIDI jitter ( inconstant latency).
        But if you don't use a DAW for musical projects, this is not an issue.
        The test showed this "problem" (from early days) wasn't there.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Vie-de-Rhum View Post
          MIDI-buffer-jitter-jitter.png
          The problem with USB MIDI has always been the MIDI jitter ( inconstant latency).
          But if you don't use a DAW for musical projects, this is not an issue.
          Usb sends it’s data in packages like a train leaving after a schedule. If you miss the schedule you have to wait for the next train. USB 2.0 works like this and seems to send data every 0,125ms. Midi din cable works the same way only it sends every 1ms.

          Technically it shouldn’t have jitter issues more than 0,125ms which is negligible. However USB can be interrupted by the operating system and can cause issues like this. Turning off power saving features is a good idea.

          Thankfully USB 3 doesn’t work like this, it works like PCI. It sends the data continuously. So does Thunderbolt.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Nick74 View Post

            The test showed this "problem" (from early days) wasn't there.
            What DAW did you use to play superior drummer?

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            • #21
              image_35701.jpg128A6B6C-3112-4B6C-B8A6-832A84DD9BED.jpeg

              We used Cubase 10
              Last edited by Ribot; 05-22-20, 10:49 AM.
              Desktop PC I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, RME AIO, RME ADI2pro, RME Digiface USB, Mac Air 2014, Zoom Tac2r, Apollo Twin MKI Solo TD30, Vh13, Drum Tec pro pads, BFD3, Henry Hirsch, Peter Erskine, Evil Drums, Superior 3.0, Decades, Cubase 10, Reaper, Ludwig 67 Kit all sizes from 22, Ludwig Cob, 4*14, Slingerland 50s, Paiste Modern Ess, Zildjian Constantinople

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Ribot View Post
                Cool.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by frankzappa View Post

                  Usb sends it’s data in packages like a train leaving after a schedule. If you miss the schedule you have to wait for the next train. USB 2.0 works like this and seems to send data every 0,125ms. Midi din cable works the same way only it sends every 1ms.

                  Technically it shouldn’t have jitter issues more than 0,125ms which is negligible. However USB can be interrupted by the operating system and can cause issues like this. Turning off power saving features is a good idea.

                  Jepp, tweak your machine in order to get a capable realtime audio computer!

                  A big advantage is the ability of USB midi to send several messages at the same time. DIN midi can only send messages byte-serial. Best example for this advantage is a note that comes along with CC (for PositionalSensing)

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Nick74 View Post


                    Jepp, tweak your machine in order to get a capable realtime audio computer!

                    A big advantage is the ability of USB midi to send several messages at the same time. DIN midi can only send messages byte-serial. Best example for this advantage is a note that comes along with CC (for PositionalSensing)
                    Exactly, I can imagine hihats and other stuff that sends cc messages can suffer more latency/jitter with din. With usb3 this problem is gone.

                    I think with something like the presonus quantum or the lynx stuff we can get down to roland module latency with usb3.

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                    • #25
                      Reminds me of similar tests I did years ago on this very forum: https://www.vdrums.com/forum/advance...perior-drummer
                      Roland TD-15K, Roland CM-220 CUBE Monitors, Pearl Throne Thumper, Superior Drummer 2.x, Joe Barresi Evil Drums SDX, The Metal Foundry SDX

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                      • #26
                        One thing I’m not quite understanding is how connecting to a USB3 port is any better than connecting to a USB2 port.

                        The Roland TD-50 USB “computer” port is a USB2 port. Not USB3. And whenever you connect a USB2 device to a USB3 port, the port will throttle itself down and operate in USB2 mode. This ensures backward compatibility. Has anyone tested latency results connecting to the same system but using USB2 and then USB3?

                        I would be very surprised to see any difference in performance or stability.
                        Roland TD-50 & eDRUMin Modules | Superior Drummer 3 | Tama A2E w/ R-Drums Triggers | FIELD, ATV, & Roland Cymbals | ACD Unlimited Pedals | Tama & Gibraltar HW | RME HDSPe AIO Interface | Mackie ProFX10v3 Mixer | Simmons DA200S Monitor | V-MODA Crossfade M-100 OEMs & Westone UM Pro 50 IEMs

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                        • #27
                          Not sure if it's on topic exactly, but I'll add some to this since I'm bored.

                          I only have the Onyx EDLM app to measure so I'm not sure how accurate that's considered to be.
                          The VST setup is Presonus Quantum 2 via Thunderbolt to Macbook Pro, triggering Superior Drummer 3.
                          All measurements were taken from the snare input to the headphone output (module or Q2).

                          ATV aD5

                          Internal: 4.0ms
                          USB Midi: 64/44.1KHz: 6.6ms; 64/96KHz: 5.3ms


                          Pearl Mimic Pro

                          Internal: 6.6ms
                          DIN Midi: 64/44.1KHz: 10.0ms; 64/96KHz: 8.7ms

                          Not exactly apples to apples since the DIN cable is on the Q2 and the USB was direct to the Mac, but still interesting.


                          Pearl MIMIC Pro, ATV aD5, ATV aDrums Expanded

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                          • #28
                            I’ve been using EDLM as well lately. It’s a bit of a heart breaker with its results but I’d rather feel that my readings are worse rather than better to avoid any bickering...

                            Thats said, I’ve heard the Mimic isn’t amazing in terms of midi performance so I’m not completely surprised.
                            Roland TD-50 & eDRUMin Modules | Superior Drummer 3 | Tama A2E w/ R-Drums Triggers | FIELD, ATV, & Roland Cymbals | ACD Unlimited Pedals | Tama & Gibraltar HW | RME HDSPe AIO Interface | Mackie ProFX10v3 Mixer | Simmons DA200S Monitor | V-MODA Crossfade M-100 OEMs & Westone UM Pro 50 IEMs

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by rdubu View Post
                              One thing I’m not quite understanding is how connecting to a USB3 port is any better than connecting to a USB2 port.

                              The Roland TD-50 USB “computer” port is a USB2 port. Not USB3. And whenever you connect a USB2 device to a USB3 port, the port will throttle itself down and operate in USB2 mode. This ensures backward compatibility. Has anyone tested latency results connecting to the same system but using USB2 and then USB3?

                              I would be very surprised to see any difference in performance or stability.
                              Good point. I think that usb2 latency is so small (0.125ms) that we can’t measure it in this test.

                              However, I think the latency could also be on the recieving end. I think usb does this a bit backwards, the recieving side tells the sender that it is ready to recieve somehow.

                              I’m not completely sure of this, I read something about it but did not spend a great deal on it.

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                              • #30
                                Here is what I found about usb3:

                                • Transfer speed – USB 3.0 adds a new transfer type called SuperSpeed or SS, 5 Gbit/s (electrically, it is more similar to PCI Express 2.0and SATA than USB 2.0)[8]
                                • Improved bus use – a new feature is added (using packets NRDY and ERDY) to let a device asynchronously notify the host of its readiness, with no need for polling
                                So it transfers the signals electrically and it doesn’t use polling (the latency jitter problem).

                                However I’m not sure how it works with usb 2. Maybe it can do this asyncronous polling anyway.

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