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SD3-,EZDr-,SSD5- Hihat Fix compensates the lack of free-of-artefact pedal translation

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  • SD3-,EZDr-,SSD5- Hihat Fix compensates the lack of free-of-artefact pedal translation

    SuperiorDrummer-, EZDrummer-, SSD5-, GrooveAgent- Variable Hihat Fix will compensate the lack of consistent or free-of-artefact hihat translation

    You've got issues with sound containing unwanted artefacts from the variable hihat when e.g. slowly closing the hihat (like described here) or unwanted "splash sound" when stepping? Or the variable hihat doesn't work properly at all like sometimes in GrooveAgent (btw playing theGA SimonPhillips-Packs is a high end sound experience...)

    Well here comes the answer to such hihat issues! (as I think you'll wait for ages for Toontrack's or StevenSlate's or Steinberg's e-drumming fixes):

    I've developed a midi workaround within the hosts [Cubase , Logic Pro X , Reaper , Bidule , AbletonLive]: With it you can play the variable hihat without the mentioned drum samplers processing any CC data! So this will stop any unwanted behaviour and sound artefacts. Of course you can customize the variable hihat and determinate the open-(or closed-)stage for any pedal positon (module's CC input value) and/or skip stages you don't want...

    I'll share my workaround and will give support for it via internet for a donation. So if you are interested let me know by PM.
    Last edited by Nick74; 08-11-20, 03:27 AM.

  • #2
    I guess you should upload a demo of what problem you're fixing and your solution, if you're asking people for money.

    Comment


    • #3
      No problem (I already did in the linked post):

      sound file (2 sequences from the first NewYorkAvatar-Hihat, Overhead-Channel Solo) + midi file (the midi data triggering both sequences)

      The hihat engines from Toontrack drumsamplers, StevenSlate and Steinberg's GrooveAgent work like this.

      The solution is that I achieve a hihat that works like e.g. BFD2/3, AddictiveDrums2, Ableton DrumSamplers and Roland internal module sound: an open sound won't be disturbed by foot movement until the "Chick" is reached.


      Concerning the GrooveAgent hihat issue: LINK . Regarding GrooveAgent and e-drumming a reply from Steinberg support "working on it" means that there probably will be a fix available in the year 2030.

      Last edited by Nick74; 03-22-20, 03:52 AM.

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      • #4
        Nick74 is a nice, trustworthy person and drum teacher who relies on a financial income stream derived of his profession.

        If you have problems in this regard, I would use his service, he spend quite a lot of brainpower and time for his smart solutions, which are actually cheap! and work.

        Disclaimer: I am not affiliated in any businesses with nick74
        Last edited by Ribot; 03-22-20, 05:32 AM.
        Desktop PC I5 Asus, Asus P8Z77, RME AIO, RME ADI2pro, RME Digiface USB, Mac Air 2014, Zoom Tac2r, Apollo Twin MKI Solo TD30, Vh13, Drum Tec pro pads, BFD3, Henry Hirsch, Peter Erskine, Evil Drums, Superior 3.0, Decades, Cubase 10, Reaper, Ludwig 67 Kit all sizes from 22, Ludwig Cob, 4*14, Slingerland 50s, Paiste Modern Ess, Zildjian Constantinople

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        • #5
          I'll be honest, I don't get the issue, or at least I don't notice anything disturbing when playing the midi with my kits. Maybe a before/after audio file would make it clearer. I saw this in the thread that you quoted:

          Originally posted by Nick74 View Post
          There is a thing: the Toontrack hihat engine "issue". Their engine lacks the option of not triggering closer stages by foot movement after open strokes.
          Why would you want the sound not to change while the hats are resonating if you're pressing on the pedal? I must be misunderstanding something.
          Now if someone could figure out how not to change the open sound while I'm NOT changing pedal position on my VH-11, that'd be nice I imagine your fix might fix my issue but not in the way I'd want it to.
          The other issue I have with hi-hat on SD3 is the sound sometimes changing too abruptly if I close the hats quickly, but not in the way you did in your midi. It sounded fine there.
          Last edited by Excessium; 03-22-20, 06:33 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Excessium View Post
            I'll be honest, I don't get the issue, or at least I don't notice anything disturbing when playing the midi with my kits.

            Why would you want the sound not to change while the hats are resonating if you're pressing on the pedal? I must be misunderstanding something.
            If you don't have any issues and everything works fine for you then my workaround really is not meant for you. And if you don't get the issue after taking notice of my audio file I can not help you.


            Originally posted by Excessium View Post
            Maybe a before/after audio file would make it clearer.
            No! Seems that you really don't get it. The "after audio file" woul be the natural and unaffected fade of the open sound until the pedal note comes in. Can't be that hard ... You can ask yourself why the hihat engines of BFD and many other drum samplers and Roland-module-sound work like this and not the Toontrack way...



            @ Ribot : thank you very much!
            Last edited by Nick74; 03-22-20, 07:29 AM.

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            • #7
              Trying to sell a product while being condescending to potential customers and not providing a direct sample of what you're selling.
              What could go wrong?

              Originally posted by Nick74 View Post
              You can ask yourself why the hihat engines of BFD and many other drum samplers and Roland-module-sound work like this and not the Toontrack way...
              Should I also ask myself why ATV made side triggers instead of doing it the same way Roland has for decades?
              Thanks for your time.

              Comment


              • #8
                You should ask yourself why you spend your time on subjects that are not of your interest...

                "condescending to potential customers" ...Oh no, please...don't...this is ridiculous. BTW I'm not selling anthing here and I'm not condescending to potential customers. I don't even have customers because - you already guessed it - I'm not selling anything here: a donation can be 0, don't you know?

                And why the vulture should I provide a sample of a naturally and unaffected fading open hihat sound muted by a pedal"chick" sound after few seconds... ...But...wait...I can do this for you, if you insist and your imagination of an unaffected fading open hihat sound muted by a pedal"chick" after short time is that limited... . Please tell me if you insist and still really want it......... Alternatively you can check the hihat engine of BFD, AddictiveDrums, AbletonDrum-Kits or check the behaviour of Roland module hihat sound.

                Last edited by Nick74; 03-22-20, 10:44 AM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  One needs to use an external DAW to implement/use it with SD3?

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by csnow View Post
                    One needs to use an external DAW to implement/use it with SD3?
                    Yes, I can set it up for "Cubase" (Artist/Pro), "Logic Pro X", "Reaper", "Ableton Live Suite" and the ingenious modular DAW "Bidule".
                    Last edited by Nick74; 08-11-20, 03:24 AM.

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                    • #11
                      Well I for one, fully understand the issue and can hear the blatant sound flaws.

                      There's only 2 workarounds to my knowledge.

                      1. Use CC smoothing - on Megadrum, it quantizes the range while keeping the same polling rate. No introduced lag, just works by reducing the shear amount of CC messages sent during pedal movement. Reduces artefacts, but doesn't eliminate it.

                      2. Use the legacy midi note based articulations for hi-hat openness levels at the compromise of disabling transmuting entirely.



                      I'm not sure how Nick's fix works in retrospect to those.



                      A good solution I can imagine (with less compromise) would be an option to only watch for pedal movements for about 100ms after a bow/edge hit, and ignore then after - that would still allow advantageous use of transmuting where it counts, i.e. barking and overcoming midi lag, with less downsides.

                      The problem seems to mostly occur during the pedal close motion though, before the chick sample.

                      Another alternative solution could be an option to just disable transmutes from open to closed entirely, but leave close to open unaffected. Toontrack devs, if you are listening?
                      Last edited by Kabonfaiba; 03-22-20, 11:17 AM.
                      ◾ Diamond Drums 4pc in Di-Noc carbon ◾ MegaDRUM
                      ◾ Roland UA-1010 / cymbals / KT-10 (x2) ◾ Tama / Gibraltar hardware ◾ JBL LSR3 Series 2.1 Monitoring ◾ Pearl THMP-1
                      PA Comparison Sheet

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                      • #12
                        So I do get what your trying to fix here, but I honestly don’t think it’s that big of an issue to begin with. The bigger problem in all reality is that cymbals have so many sonic / tonal subtleties at various velocity hits and a HiHat pair that’s resonating while simultaneously choking itself against the top and bottom plates are NEVER going to accurately be represented in a sample-based architecture. Not 100% anyway...

                        This is why Roland and a few others have turned to modeling. Problem to date though is that it’s been a rough implementation so far (in my opinion).

                        If we’re ever going to get to a pure 100% representation of acoustic drums / cymbals, then we’re going to need a hybrid sample / modeling application that uses the best of both worlds. Or a completely new direction entirely... Who knows?

                        So while I appreciate the fix you’re trying to go after here, I would say that A) this post is likely better suited in the marketplace - as I agree with Excessium that this sounds like a sales pitch more than a discussion and B) I personally don’t see a need for this in the first place.

                        Good luck in any case...
                        Roland TD-50 & eDRUMin Modules | Superior Drummer 3 | Tama A2E w/ R-Drums Triggers | FIELD, ATV, & Roland Cymbals | ACD Unlimited Pedals | Tama & Gibraltar HW | RME HDSPe AIO Interface | Mackie ProFX10v3 Mixer | Simmons DA200S Monitor | V-MODA Crossfade M-100 OEMs & Westone UM Pro 50 IEMs

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by rdubu View Post
                          So I do get what your trying to fix here, but I honestly don’t think it’s that big of an issue to begin with. The bigger problem in all reality is that cymbals have so many sonic / tonal subtleties at various velocity hits and a HiHat pair that’s resonating while simultaneously choking itself against the top and bottom plates are NEVER going to accurately be represented in a sample-based architecture. Not 100% anyway...
                          Well, my experience is that especially when wanting great sounding standalone drum sound (without any music mix) it can be annoying. And some hihats from some packs are more or less annoying... I often switch between different drum samplers and when I've been playing (something like) BFD for quite a while and then return to Toontrack samplers I really can notice the difference with the shaky hihat sound... Because of that shaky sound I often reduce the open-closed stages down to 2 or 3. As a result the hihat is far away from its natural role model but it has stopped being annoying. Playing a hihat like in BFD (or my workaround - what is the same) is of course not the experience of an authentic behavior BUT in most cases it won't annoy you. In m opinion the FXpansion guys for example decided to choose their hihat engine with well considered reasoning: in many cases it won't work well if you try to make it more authentical by CC data alone triggering the stages
                          Last edited by Nick74; 03-22-20, 06:30 PM.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Kabonfaiba View Post
                            Well I for one, fully understand the issue and can hear the blatant sound flaws.

                            There's only 2 workarounds to my knowledge.

                            1. Use CC smoothing - on Megadrum, it quantizes the range while keeping the same polling rate. No introduced lag, just works by reducing the shear amount of CC messages sent during pedal movement. Reduces artefacts, but doesn't eliminate it.

                            2. Use the legacy midi note based articulations for hi-hat openness levels at the compromise of disabling transmuting entirely.



                            I'm not sure how Nick's fix works in retrospect to those.



                            A good solution I can imagine (with less compromise) would be an option to only watch for pedal movements for about 100ms after a bow/edge hit, and ignore then after - that would still allow advantageous use of transmuting where it counts, i.e. barking and overcoming midi lag, with less downsides.

                            The problem seems to mostly occur during the pedal close motion though, before the chick sample.

                            Another alternative solution could be an option to just disable transmutes from open to closed entirely, but leave close to open unaffected. Toontrack devs, if you are listening?
                            Hey Kabonfaiba, there are many clever thoughts and aspects you're talking about here. Thank you for that!


                            Originally posted by Kabonfaiba View Post
                            2. Use the legacy midi note based articulations for hi-hat openness levels at the compromise of disabling transmuting entirely.
                            Yes, in fact my workaround (and the BFD engine) works this way.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Yes I understand the problem. I find if I try to play a hi hat in SD3 partially open then it keeps getting muted as the top and bottom cymbals of my vh12 hit. Also i get the odd cutoff and transition when closing the hi hat. Stopping transitions isn’t ideal but better than the odd effects I get at present
                              Roland TD30 module on TD20 kit SD3 with various kits. Pearl Masters Kit, Yamaha 9000RC original natural wood finish. Cymbals from Zildgian Pasite and Sabian. Loads of percussion bits. Cubase and Wavelab always current versions.

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