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Roland triggers and voltage

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  • Roland triggers and voltage

    Can someone tell me how much power a Roland module expects to receive from a standard kick trigger pad in order to produce a level 127 dynamic output using standard kick trigger settings?
    Last edited by bwilburn79; 02-28-14, 05:02 PM.
    Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

  • #2
    From what I know, a piezo creates a waveform that looks like a decreasing amplitude sine wave, there are pics of them around. The highest amplitutde (the first oscilation) determines the dynamic but it is modified by the sensitivity setting in the module.

    That said, for a given sensitivity setting on a module there probably is a direct answer to your question, but I don't know it. :-)

    Mini-kit: TD-9 + Alesis Control Pad + Alesis Sample Pad + PDX-6 snare
    Micro-kit: Handsonic HPD-20 + an old pair of hands.
    Speakers: QSC-K10 "thumper", DBR-10 "little thumper"

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    • #3
      Originally posted by bwilburn79 View Post
      Can someone tell me how much power a Roland module expects to receive from a standard kick trigger pad in order to produce a level 127 dynamic output using standard kick trigger settings?
      ???

      Just buy a 35mm piezo and adjust the sensitivity on the module.
      I think my work is done here.

      Comment


      • #4
        I need to know the specifics for a project I'm considering. I have an idea for an FSR based trigger and I'm considering a prototype. It will supply a constant signal to the module that is interrupted by the FSR until you hit it, reducing the resistance, allowing a current pulse to pass to the module. I need to know how much current is normal so I don't damage my module.
        Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

        Comment


        • #5
          Piezos are high impedance. That is, high voltage, low current. Don't think in terms of current, think in terms of voltage. Just get a 'scope and connect it to a pad, hit it, and bingo-you'll see the peak.

          I'm guessing your idea is to place an FSR in series with a DC source and the module (like a rheostat). I'm not sure how well the module is going to handle the resulting DC offset voltage. Granted, you could block that with a coupling capacitor but that will change the pulse waveshape. If my assumption on your design is correct, you're going to create a voltage divider between the FSR and the input impedance to the module. The resulting waveform will be highly dependent on the module input's impedance.

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          • #6
            So, do you want to have a 'pad-triggered mute-switch', basically?


            ...like a 'chopper / gating-effect' on a string-pad sound...?
            .
            .
            Greetings from Switzerland,
            - Dänoh



            "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

            http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

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            • #7
              No HM, I'm interested to see If "we" (someone, anyone besides me) can DIY a single zone FSR based trigger that functions like a single zone piezo based trigger. In my mind this would be a kick trigger. I'd like to make a stick on beater patch that contains an FSR. The very basic idea being that a "control" box would be mounted to the hoop containing the power supply, electronics, and mono jack. Power is routed to the module through the FSR. When the beater strikes the FSR, resistance is lowered in proportion to the strike, the module receives a pulse from the trigger and plays a sound dynamically proportional to the strike. Like you pointed out Jim, who knows how the module would interpret the resulting voltage.

              Now obviously I know very little about electronics and electricity in general. I'm trying to get knowledgeable folks to discuss it (or point and laugh at me) in this thread. Jim, I'm sure if this is possible you can figure it out. Maybe it's not a viable idea but Aquarian seems to be running with it.
              Roland TD12 module / DIY Kit in progress, Gretsch Blackhawk A (soon to be E) kit.

              Comment


              • #8
                Ah...I should have noticed it was tied somehow to the other thread. Oops...

                Nevermind... I'll leave the knowledgeable folks to discuss -part to others ...like Jim... and will confine myself to the part that said pointing and laughing at you...!



                Keep smiling!
                .
                .
                Greetings from Switzerland,
                - Dänoh



                "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                Comment


                • #9
                  Just for my own curiosity, is there a reason why you want to do an FSR trigger instead of a simple piezo trigger? It sounds like you want it to work like a piezo trigger, so why not just do a simple piezo trigger?
                  I think my work is done here.

                  Comment


                  • bwilburn79
                    bwilburn79 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Honestly Tommy, with the Aquarian FSR based products hitting the market, I was simply pondering ideas on how it might work. I thought of the kick trigger because they tend to be the most varied in size and triggering results when people do DIY projects. An FSR beater patch or an FSR beater trigger would have the same triggering response no matter the application. To answer your question, I'd just like to know if it would work, and if so, how well? This is the equivalent of me scribbling and idea onto a napkin to see what others think. I really don't have the know how to do anything with it. I'd like to see someone, who is capable of figuring this out, try it and see if it works. If not, we'll just look up a year from now and the latest NAMM thread will include it anyway. Rather than always reverse engineering others work it'd be cool to say "we" (the community here) did that before (insert your favorite big name here) did.

                • #10
                  Originally posted by bwilburn79 View Post
                  No HM, I'm interested to see If "we" (someone, anyone besides me) can DIY a single zone FSR based trigger that functions like a single zone piezo based trigger. In my mind this would be a kick trigger. I'd like to make a stick on beater patch that contains an FSR. The very basic idea being that a "control" box would be mounted to the hoop containing the power supply, electronics, and mono jack. Power is routed to the module through the FSR. When the beater strikes the FSR, resistance is lowered in proportion to the strike, the module receives a pulse from the trigger and plays a sound dynamically proportional to the strike. Like you pointed out Jim, who knows how the module would interpret the resulting voltage.

                  Now obviously I know very little about electronics and electricity in general. I'm trying to get knowledgeable folks to discuss it (or point and laugh at me) in this thread. Jim, I'm sure if this is possible you can figure it out. Maybe it's not a viable idea but Aquarian seems to be running with it.
                  Not to discourage you but the reason the Aquarian kick is a piezo trigger is not because they could not develope an fsr kick trigger. It was because the piezo produced better results.... According to this:

                  http://www.mikedolbear.com/story.asp?StoryID=3299

                  Last edited by JmanWord; 03-01-14, 01:41 PM.
                  I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
                  Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Pearl Mimic Pro ,2Box modules,drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds directly from the Mimic and custom sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

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                  • bwilburn79
                    bwilburn79 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Good stuff JMan, no discouragement here. I had reasoned the KickZONE remained piezo based due to the need for the inBOX. I imagined they would unveil the 'full monty" when they could provide Phantom power later. Here's the quote Jman referred to:

                    KickZone

                    In Aquarian's original trials, they found that an FSR bass drum trigger did not give as good a result as a simple piezo trigger. The reason being that the FSR bass drum trigger was too sensitive and it triggered when the beater was resting against the head. And many of us bounce our legs between hits which also caused problems. Subsequently, the KickZone is a double Aquarian beater patch with a piezo buried in neoprene just above it. Unlike other bass drum triggers which clip on the rim, the KickZone sticks to the head and floats on it which should (and does appear to) give better results. The output of the KickZone is a small flying lead with a jack socket which sticks onto the rim or any nearby convenient place.

                • #11
                  I am not a fan of engineering something "just because you can". It might be a fun challenge on a personal level but that doesn't mean you'll wind up with an effective and reliable long term solution. So if the issue is simply a desire to create a kick trigger, go with what's proven to work. There has to be a compelling reason to go another route (short of the personal challenge already mentioned). If you can't articulate the current shortcoming and how the new route solves that, I suggest putting your energy elsewhere.

                  So, I'm quite sure that we can come up with an FSR based kick trigger. Will it perform better, be less expensive, more reliable, etc.? My very quick analysis is that it won't be less expensive. Piezos are fairly reliable, too, so that just leaves performance. What's the performance metric we're looking at? I have no idea...

                  Comment


                  • bwilburn79
                    bwilburn79 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Lol. Jim, I love your candid manner. And doggone it your always right. I think there are three basic reasons to engineer something. 1.) Fill a need that exists. 2.) Make something better. 3.) Because you're passionate about it. The first 2 are practical and the last is just for fun. Few of us will ever actually invent anything useful and/or original, patent protect even one idea, or even do what we love for a living. So the only reason many of us attempt to engineer anything is "just because you can" or as a "fun challenge on a personal level". I'm not a self doubter by any means but I'm realistic and not in a position to invest my resources into the next big thing in electronic drumming, whatever that is. But if I was, I would definitely try to hire you to keep me on track. Hey look, a squirrel. Lol.

                • #12
                  If you want something like a simple patch that adheres to a head, why not try using a switch trigger and double sided tape it to the back of an acoustic head?
                  I think my work is done here.

                  Comment


                  • bwilburn79
                    bwilburn79 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    That would be the Aquarian KickZONE. This is really about the journey, not the destination. I'm in Tennessee and I want to end up in New York but I want to see the Grand Canyon on the way. Not really practical, but fun and I could tell you I saw the Grand Canyon when I meet you in New York. Lol.

                • #13
                  Originally posted by JimFiore View Post
                  My very quick analysis is that it won't be less expensive. Piezos are fairly reliable, too, so that just leaves performance. What's the performance metric we're looking at? I have no idea...

                  Jim,
                  I think he wants an FSR-based kick-trigger that's capable of Positional Sensing!









                  (...despite the fact that the beater is always hitting the same spot, of course!)


                  HTH
                  Last edited by hairmetal-81; 03-01-14, 03:03 PM.
                  .
                  .
                  Greetings from Switzerland,
                  - Dänoh



                  "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                  http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

                  Comment


                  • bwilburn79
                    bwilburn79 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Nooooooooooo. (Shouted as I run in slow motion) Perhaps I made a mistake linking to the other thread. The other thread was meant to discuss the vast number of "Hypothetical, probably both silly and impossible, idea"(s) that cross my mind. They aren't necessarily linked together. This would simply be a single zone FSR based trigger that invokes a response from a drum module just as a single zone piezo based trigger would. Likely a more complicated, more expensive, under performing, and less reliable version of today's piezo trigger. Lol.

                  • hairmetal-81
                    hairmetal-81 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    ('Chariots of Fire' will play in the background....)

                    Sorry, I'm still dumb:
                    The FSR kick trigger, that would be what the KickZone or OnHead is, isn't it?

                  • bwilburn79
                    bwilburn79 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    The KickZONE is a piezo based trigger attached to the head with an adhesive. It isn't directly struck. I believe both the onHEAD and inHEAD are in fact FSR based.

                • #14



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                  TD50 Digital Pack, TD30 and TD9 Modules, custom made pads, Gen16 crashes, and hats plus a few other things that I'm not sure what to do with or why they're still in my kit. Bands: Espada http://www.musicaespada.com/ and JamCo https://www.facebook.com/JamcoEntertainment, https://www.jamcoband.com/

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                  • hairmetal-81
                    hairmetal-81 commented
                    Editing a comment
                    Is that Chad Smith or still Will Ferrell....?


                • #15
                  lol, Michael Keaton, great movie!
                   
                  TD50 Digital Pack, TD30 and TD9 Modules, custom made pads, Gen16 crashes, and hats plus a few other things that I'm not sure what to do with or why they're still in my kit. Bands: Espada http://www.musicaespada.com/ and JamCo https://www.facebook.com/JamcoEntertainment, https://www.jamcoband.com/

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