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What is the technology behind the td30 sounds? samples? digital models?

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  • What is the technology behind the td30 sounds? samples? digital models?

    hi-

    im not sure and cant find any info about the sound sources in the td30. is it multi samples? if yeas, how many per drum(dynamic level)?
    is it digital modeling made from scratch by digitally recreating a simillar waveform that a drum would?
    if its samples, when you change the inst settings(heads, sizes, ambience etc.) is it all samples or, again, just a digital impression of what WOULD have happened under certain conditions?

    there is no info online.

    id love to know what im playing...;-)

    thanks!

  • #2
    Hi,
    As I understand it, it's both sample waveforms and computer modeling of them to generate realism that accounts for a number of variables, from how hard you hit the trigger to how the room is emulated.
    For more info search for "COSM" which is Roland's trade name for their proprietary modeling. It's loosely described here from their web site: COSM: Composite Object Sound Modeling

    Once a musical instrument generates sound vibrations, it reaches the human ear through various mediating, objects, each of which significantly affects the sound. The material and configuration of the instrument, the electric/magnetic amplifying system, the air and the reverberation of the room all affect the final sound. Sound modeling, the latest DSP technology, "virtually" reconstructs these objects. Roland's breakthrough Composite Object Sound Modeling (COSM) uses the advantages of multiple modeling methods and succeeds in accurately emulating existing sounds, as well as producing sounds that have never before been created.



    ATV aDrums & aD5, Pearl Mimic Pro & DIY, eDRUMin 10, Agean R-series Silent Cymbals, Roland Handsonic HPD-20.

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    • #3
      As I understand it, the sounds are simply samples that have been modified to work with the COSM system. After all, you cannot simply take a waveform, twist a dial, and expect it to consistently work with those adjustments. The final wavs seem very "explicitly designed" in both length and waveform for all this to work. I do not believe there is (or know of) any form of "multi" sampling in Roland products... yet.
      Alan
      ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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      • #4
        This will open a can of worms. But basically...yes. They take a sound generated from a "real" instrument....capture...reproduce(synthesize) it's wave form and analyze it's characteristics when stimulated by various activities of playing/velocity/nuance and manipulate it to generate appropriate synthesized facsimiles to create tones/effects/and responses when played.
        8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
        http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

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        • #5
          They've never said as much but from a technical standpoint I have assumed that they capture the impulse responses (or differences between responses) of various items of interest and then implement digital filters to carry out those functions. This is commonly done now to create reverb based on real room impulse responses but there's nothing that says you couldn't compare the impulse response of, say, a steel shell to a birch shell and use that to modify a common excitation impulse. I don't know that this is precisely what they're doing but given the name they've chosen, the various descriptions/claims, and what's possible based on my engineering background, it seems to be a likely candidate.

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          • #6
            Oh no...like Fulmr said, this may very well turn into a 65 page thread. Grab the popcorn! LOL!
            - EKIT: Jobeky Drums: Custom 5 piece "Lacewood fade" & Hart 13" Pro Chrome snare. ROLAND MG V-CYMBALS
            - AKIT: PDP Concept Maple by DW. Zildjian K & A Custom cymbals. Hybrid acoustic mic'd / 2Box triggered kit

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            • #7
              This is a very interesting subject even beyond our TD30 modules (I say TD30 because from my understanding its NOT COSM anymore).
              I think this is a real contemporary subject of what is essence and what determines what...
              I DO want to know how much of the source was captured from a "REAL" acoustic source using a microphone (with its anomalies- The most important part of an acoustic instrument).
              Is it a Sample of only one drum and then that one drum goes through the modeling process to change every aspect of it? material- size-head-miking-Room Type....?
              Is it a synthesis from the get go like an analog synthesizer would imitate an acoustic sound, only done it the digital domain?
              I think there should be reading material. Did Roland publish ANYTHING in reference to the TD30 technology?

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              • #8
                Found this: http://www.roland.co.uk/blog/how-doe...echnology-work

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Rea View Post
                  This is a very interesting subject even beyond our TD30 modules
                  You may want to make good use of the '#@§# Search-Engine' and take a plunge into the archives ....there must be dozens of threads about this very subject, as it has been discussed to near death in the past!




                  (I say TD30 because from my understanding its NOT COSM anymore).
                  Both 'COSM' and 'SuperNatural' are just fancy marketing terms, all based on the same principle of physical modeling (!)

                  Modeling is modeling (...is modeling is modeling...)

                  .
                  .
                  Greetings from Switzerland,
                  - Dänoh



                  "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                  http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

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                  • #10
                    Sorry if that's a beat to death subject... im new on this site. Couldnt find any thread that is dedicated to discussing this terminology. Can you refer me to one?
                    thanks!

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                    • #11
                      This site ain't what it used to be, so it'd be no surprise if your search returned nothing.
                      Side point: using the hyphen in Roland product names (TD-30) doesn't work, you need to remove it (TD 30) and then you might find something. How's that for intuitive?!!
                      So, as eluded to above, Roland now don't use COSM in their drum modules. They use a Super NATURAL sound engine. This is extensively explained in relation to their V-Pianos (first instruments to use it) and it applies to drums as well.
                      Roland are coy about it, but the process is sampling first to ascertain sound properties and develop base waveforms for reproduction. Then it gets a little grey, but they are using synthesis rather than sample playback. On top of that, the modelling they use also synthesises instrument properties (resonance, materials, sympathetic vibration, etc), and this can be adjusted to varying degrees.
                      So in short, it's believed to be synthesis, but it's unclear if that's applied to a sample or not. I tend to think not, as the number of samples that would be required for each instrument and all the variations of that (including applied effects) would be extraordinary large. And to support that idea, I believe that's why people take issue with their sounds, as samples would be just identical to instruments sampled, so they would sound 100% correct off the bat, as a VST sounds (even if they're not your favourite instruments).
                      Make sense?

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Tazed View Post
                        This site ain't what it used to be, so it'd be no surprise if your search returned nothing.
                        Side point: using the hyphen in Roland product names (TD-30) doesn't work, you need to remove it (TD 30) and then you might find something. How's that for intuitive?!!
                        So, as eluded to above, Roland now don't use COSM in their drum modules. They use a Super NATURAL sound engine. This is extensively explained in relation to their V-Pianos (first instruments to use it) and it applies to drums as well.
                        "SuperNATURAL" is just a progression of COSM. Same tech that was first applied to the V Piano series...just upgraded version as advancements have developed.

                        As far as the search engine goes...the sites has always been crap. That's why a member here created this one for us years ago. You'll get many more hits from your searches from past threads using it instead.

                        https://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=0...85:ld78rt83m3w
                        8 piece DIY Acrylic, 2x2Box DrumIt5, Gen16 4xDCP, DIY Acrylic&Gen16 Conversions, Sleishman Twin-QuadSteele hybrid, Gibraltar&DrumFrame rack, DW9502LB, Midi Knights Pro Lighting
                        http://www.airbrushartists.org/DreamscapeAirbrushRealm

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Tazed View Post
                          So in short, it's believed to be synthesis, but it's unclear if that's applied to a sample or not. I tend to think not, as the number of samples that would be required for each instrument and all the variations of that (including applied effects) would be extraordinary large.

                          Do we know then-, or have any figures, how big the memory is in Mb or Gb (RAM or ROM) that's allocated to the believed sampling, or rather, the synthesis process?

                          Any clues or hints?




                          Make sense?
                          Absolutely! - You've said that nicely!



                          .
                          .
                          Greetings from Switzerland,
                          - Dänoh



                          "My best friends' name is J-SON. They used to call him 'Mr. Parse.' He has an 'Error'..!"

                          http://www.vdrums.com/forum/core/cus...ar33631_4.jpeg

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