TD-10: Why so many piezo/FSR inputs??

[darrenmc]

I was thinking of putting together a monster V-Session in purple, with a gibraltar rack, and
Kick (120) (kick input)
3 toms (2-100, 1-120) (tom input 1-3)
snare (120) (snare input)
V cymbal pack (hat, 2 crashes, ride) (hat, crash 1, crash 2, ride, Aux 1 input)
KD-7 for foot cowbell (tom 4)
an extra pad for percussion noises (Aux 2)

OK, but I ALSO want an extra crash, splash, and china, ALL as separate cymbals of some sort (I do NOT like triggering two different sounds with one cymbal, as this is not what I am used to with a-drums). So it sounds like I’m three inputs short. The extra cymbals would by CY-6s or Pintechs.

I then began to study piezo and FSR triggering, dual triggering, etc. I think I understand what I can and can’t do with the TD-10 now, but I am also starting to the think the TD-10 is not very well designed. Why does it have 11 piezo/FSR inputs, and only one dual piezo input? It’s not like I’m going to be choking my kick drum or my toms.

Let me provide a brief summary of my understanding of triggering. If any of this is wrong, I will happily be corrected. (This is going to form the basis of my first FAQ question, with better writing of course... this is just a hack job, lifted from various posts of feefer’s and harlock's)

First of all, there are three kinds of pads.

a) single-piezo pads (e.g. PD-5/6/80/100),

b) piezo/FSR pads (e.g. PD-7/9/all V-Cymbals),

c) two-piezo pads (e.g. PD-80R/120).

A FSR trigger is electrically different from a piezo trigger. The main benefit of an FSR trigger is that a “squeeze” can be detected.... in other words, it allows for a “choke”, which is useful for cymbals.

FSR triggers do not work on their own, though, they work in conjunction with a piezo trigger. When you hit the edge of a cymbal, or PD9, you are really triggering both the piezo and the FSR trigger at the same time. So, if a piezo/FSR input detects the piezo signal, it treats it as a head trigger. If it detects the piezo AND FSR signals at the same time, it treats it as a rim trigger. If it detects just the FSR, it doesn’t do anything.

Here is where I think Roland drops the ball with the TD-10. (The following is a direct feefer quote).

[B}Both TD-8 and TD-10 have 12 inputs to which you can assign any sound and/or pad you wish...
The TD-8 has 4 mono inputs for PD-6/80/100 or KD-7/80/120
1 double piezo input for PD-80R/120
and 7 FSR inputs for PD-7/9 or CY-6/12H/12R.C/14C/15R
The TD-10 has 11 FSR inputs and 1 double piezo input (which I assume is the snare input)
You can plug any pad into any input, knowing how a certain input type control certain types of pads. Ex.: don't expect to trigger the rim of your PD-120 if it's plugged into a FSR input. Or don't expect to trigger the rim of your PD-7 if it's plugged into one of the TD-8's mono inputs...[/B]

So, if I’m reading this right, you can associate TWO sounds with EACH input on the TD-10, BUT you must have the RIGHT PAD for the input type in order to access both sounds. And on the TD-10, the "right pad" is almost always (except for the snare input), a piezo/FSR pad like a V-cymbal or a PD-7/9.

Therefore there is NO WAY (officially) to access the second sound on the Kick input or any of the four Tom inputs, if you actually have kicks/toms plugged in to those inputs. Even if you plug a dual triggered pd-120 into a tom input, you CANNOT use the rim on the 120 to trigger a different sound, because the rim trigger is another piezo trigger, not an FSR trigger.

If I understand all this correctly, I think I now understand the purpose of tricks like "shacking" and "grailing", and why they are hard to implement. HOWEVER, all the good posts on those subjects have been DELETED, so I’m still in the dark as to how those tricks would work anyway.

So here is my question: WHY THE HELL DID ROLAND PUT SO MANY Piezo/FSR INPUTS on the TD-10 in the first place?????? Why didn’t they make the Kick and Tom inputs dual piezo, rather than piezo/FSR? It’s not like I’m going to be CHOKING my toms or my kick drum any time soon. If the kick and toms were dual piezo, that’s FIVE extra single piezo pads, cymbals, or kick triggers you could plug in with a simple effects send/return cable, ALL with uniquely assigned sounds. That would make me happy.

To be honest, I was all fired up to drop a big fat wad of cash on piecing together my dream Purple V-Session, but now I’m not so sure. The TD-10 sounds like a real kludge. Maybe I will wait for the TD-15 to come out.

Darren

[jrcel]

The TD-10 gives you the ability to choose what type of pad you're going to use, it will accept dual piezo, piezo/fsr, or single zone in any of it's inputs.

[darrenmc]

Originally posted by jrcel:
The TD-10 gives you the ability to choose what type of pad you're going to use, it will accept dual piezo, piezo/fsr, or single zone in any of it's inputs.

.... oh. Well, then, never mind.

So, you say that I could set Tom 4 to be dual piezo, in which case I could just use an effect send return cable to Y two single piezo triggers (ie 2 pintech cymbals, 2 PD-8s) and get the head sound from one and the rim from the other?? Is it that easy? Then why are people struggling with it? What is all this talk of "shacking" and "grailing?"

[Marc.]

Originally posted by darrenmc:
So here is my question: WHY THE HELL DID ROLAND PUT SO MANY Piezo/FSR INPUTS on the TD-10 in the first place?

A Piezo/FSR gives us two unique sound assignments PLUS the choke capabilty. Is this not a tad better than a Piezo/Piezo? And most definitely better than a single. To me, it's the single zone PADS that are the limiting factor, NOT the TD-10. And I think jrcel is 1/2 right. ALL of the TD-10's inputs are "dual". However, I believe the TD-10's internal electronics for inputs no.2 and no.10 are different than the remaining 10.

[darrenmc]

Originally posted by :
A Piezo/FSR gives us two unique sound assignments PLUS the choke capabilty. Is this not a tad better than a Piezo/Piezo?

For cymbal use, I agree P/FSR inputs are definitely better because you can choke em, but I would only want to assign one sound to any given physical pad, because that's the way the Good Lord meant for drums to work. (IOW, I have no problem at all with single piezo pads and cymbals, I love them and prefer them in fact, I just can't plug enough of them into the TD-10). With more piezo/piezo inputs on the TD-10, I could, and I'd be a happy man.

So is what I want to do really difficult? Can I easily make the monster TD-10 rig I describe above, without MIDI?

Sometime ago, feefer mentioned he was thinking of writing a small book on the subject. Feef, I'll pay top $$$ for that book if you ever get it done

[darrenmc]

Originally posted by Marc.:
A Piezo/FSR gives us two unique sound assignments PLUS the choke capabilty. Is this not a tad better than a Piezo/Piezo?

OK, I plug my KD-120 into my kick drum input (P/FSR). That input gives me two unique sound assignments, you say. How do I get at both of them??

If the answer is "you can't", then I think the TD-10 is a poorly designed product. Period.

[Marc.]

Originally posted by Marc.:
A Piezo/FSR gives us two unique sound assignments PLUS the choke capabilty. Is this not a tad better than a Piezo/Piezo?

Sorry about the wording, Darren. I was referring to the pad, not the TD-10. I should have worded it ... "a Piezo/FSR pad delivers two unique signals PLUS the signal cutoff capabilty" or something similar.

Your beef is legit. I was in your frame of reference before I picked up my set. I knew I was definitely going to need more inputs, and that was in the days b-4 the shck & grail. So, I just avoided the whole trigger analysis headache and grabbed a 2nd brain (Seein' as I was hookin' up a synth anyways, I had no hesitations about the MIDI implementation). Then, along came the "grail/shack" thing and I thought, "Great! If this works out I can unload one brain and give a fellow v-drummer a nice deal."

I still have the 2nd brain.

And I'm still happy!

p.s. So, you say alot of those shack/grail posts have been deleted? Odd. Feef did say he would remove all those posts when he had finally compiled all that shack/grail stuff into a single source. Feef?

[jrcel]

You have to go into advanced trigger setup if I remember correctly and pick what type of pad you want to use in a particular input, 12a 12 10a 10 pd9 pd7 pd5 then there are two for pads from other manufacturers, the name escape me. You do have to specify though.

[drumlogic]

ok, I will carry the torch in the honor of feefer,

Here are the facts:
1. You cannot assign tom 4 to be a piezo/piezo input.
2. The reason why the posts on shacking and grailing are deleted is because these techniques are extremely difficult to pull off with good results. For somone who is not electronically inclined these techniques are IMPOSSIBLE.
3. There is one simple way to tap the unused channels of your fsr/piezo inputs(toms/kick), this is:
1. Buy a 1/4inch stereo headphone splitter.
2. Connect any piezo/fsr trigger to one female side of the headphone splitter. (I like pd-7's)
3. Connect one of your single piezo toms or kick drums to the other female side of the splitter.
4. Insert the male end of the splitter to the fsr/piezo input that the tom or kick was on.
5. Go into your modules trigger sttings and change the pad type of that input to p7b.

Here are the results:

Your tom or kick will trigger the (head sound)of the input. Same as before.
Your pd7 will trigger the bass drum or tom when you hit the center of it. However, when you hit the rim of the pd-7 you will trigger any other sound you like. By doing this you have effectively physically seperated the two channels of the fsr/piezo input. So what if you pd7 is really a two zone pad and your only really using it for one zone. I find that having the same sounds in diffent location to be an added bonus.
hope this helps.

[darrenmc]

Originally posted by drumlogic:
ok, I will carry the torch in the honor of feefer,

Here are the facts:
1. You cannot assign tom 4 to be a piezo/piezo input.
2. The reason why the posts on shacking and grailing are deleted is because these techniques are extremely difficult to pull off with good results. For somone who is not electronically inclined these techniques are IMPOSSIBLE.
3. There is one simple way to tap the unused channels of your fsr/piezo inputs(toms/kick), this is:
1. Buy a 1/4inch stereo headphone splitter.
2. Connect any piezo/fsr trigger to one female side of the headphone splitter. (I like pd-7's)
3. Connect one of your single piezo toms or kick drums to the other female side of the splitter.
4. Insert the male end of the splitter to the fsr/piezo input that the tom or kick was on.
5. Go into your modules trigger sttings and change the pad type of that input to p7b.

Here are the results:

Your tom or kick will trigger the (head sound)of the input. Same as before.
Your pd7 will trigger the bass drum or tom when you hit the center of it. However, when you hit the rim of the pd-7 you will trigger any other sound you like. By doing this you have effectively physically seperated the two channels of the fsr/piezo input. So what if you pd7 is really a two zone pad and your only really using it for one zone. I find that having the same sounds in diffent location to be an added bonus.
hope this helps.

That's excellent, thanks. I'd seen your other posts about Y'ing up a single Piezo with a P/FSR pad on a P/FSR input, so I'd already started thinking about that technique for my own set up.

Question: does changing the pad type of the kick input (for example) to p7b change the character of the kick drum at all? Is it still v-editable? Would the sensitivity parameters and so on need to be modified? (after all, the brain thinks there is a PD7 down there in front of your right foot, not a big KD-120 thumping away.)

If I used a CY-6 instead of a PD-7, I would change input type to cy6 or something rather than p7b, correct? Do you have any problems with false triggering on the PD-7s (getting the head sound, not the intended rim)? Do you imagine the CY-6 would be worse?

Thanks for all the help. It really is a pity that no selfless volunteer has volunteered to spend countless hours out of their life writing a nice, big, detailed, perfect FAQ. I'd volunteered but I've realized I don't really know what I'm talking about! These posts are helping though

Darren

BTW drumlogic, I downloaded some of your bands songs. Pretty cool!

Also, are you still using only the Ride input for your V-Ride, or have you plugged it back into the Aux as well. Do you think you're missing anything with only one input? I tried the ride with one input in the store and I thought it was fine for my needs and technique.

[drumlogic]

I dont have much time so this will be quick.
Changing the pad type will definitely change the triggering of the pad. All you will probably need to adjust is sensitvity/threshold and maybe sensitivity curve. Dont start messing around in the advanced triggering option. This is the easy way out. Being v-editable really depends upon which sample your using, not the type of pad you trigger with it. I currently have a cy14 vcymbal y'd with a visulite china. I also have a pd-7 tied in with a 10in visulite splash. Im sure a cy-6 will work just fine. Set the trigger type to the type of fsr/piezo trigger you are using. (cy6) Occasionally I go to hit the rim of the pd7 and accidentally trigger the head, but that just means I have to practice my technique, I rarely do it anymore. i only use one input for my vride. I have no need for an edge sound on my ride and I actually found it annoying having a sound on the rim of my ride. Having the aux1 input I was able to connect my 3rd cy14 and china. Thanx for the compliments on the music. I am currently recording a full demo which will be available to everyone here when it is done. You should have no problem using a cy6 on the same input as a kd-120. TYPICALLY speaking, you bass drum is least dynamic instrument on your kick so you should be able to adjust out any triggering problems in 15 min or less.
good luck.


------------------
-Drumlogic, V-session, Visulite cymbals, (2)Mackie srm-450, bbe 482 sonic maximizer, spd-20

[Steveo the Devo]

I'm still amazed that anyone has gotten so far by themselves. Normally it starts with a question like 'Why can't I ....' and they have no idea about different types of triggers and inputs.
My hat is off to you darrenmc. You have every chance of figuring out the 'shack' and 'grail' concepts.

[Marc.]

Originally posted by drumlogic:
Here are the results: ...

Strictly talking Roland here, seems to me that this methodology & "results" lends itself to adding additional piezo/fsr pads, which are typically PD7/9's and V-Cymbals? Well, it looks like I'll be hangin' on to my 2nd module.

However, all may not be hopeless. Wasn't someone around here doing a mod to their PD-100's? Who was that and how did it turn out?
Uh Oh! Here come the "use most xlnt search" remarks. -

[darrenmc]

Originally posted by Steveo the Devo:
I'm still amazed that anyone has gotten so far by themselves. Normally it starts with a question like 'Why can't I ....' and they have no idea about different types of triggers and inputs.
My hat is off to you darrenmc. You have every chance of figuring out the 'shack' and 'grail' concepts.

Thank you. Would you be even more impressed if you knew that, as of yet, I have never owned any e-drums whatsoever? (I'm heavily into researching my Purple Sessions, though!) Everything I know is from reading this board.

[Ken Taylor]

I've posted this before but I think it may be worth repeating.
Dual piezo input drums have been with us since the advent of the Simmons SDS9 in about 1983-4 but they exhibit an inherent problem. Given that the average snare skin resonates at about 1.5 khz and the rim is a litte higher at 3khz or so, we all now know that a computer ie "the drum brain" has to look at the inputs and determine which is being hit the harder the Rim or The snare. From the above you can see that you are going to have to wait at least a millisecond in order to see whether it is the snare or the rim signal which is rising the fastest and decide which sound to trigger. Now if you have say 10 inputs all of which the "computer" has to inspectin order to determine if rim or skin is being struck. It wont really matter how fast this computer is because it is forced to wait until an adequate amount of the signal from each drum has been read before it can make a descision. At the moment all of our drum brains are serial devices, ie they look at each drum in turn. Ideally the best brain would be a parallel device that could inspect all inputs simultaneously, but they aint here yet. So the way roland have organised these inputs means that the only time a choice is made is with the snare input. With the rest of the inputs using a completely different type of trigger allows simple "is it on or off" choices to be made by the software prior to triggering. Maybe the TD11 or whatever will do a better job but this at least allows for very fast triggering of the snare.
Ken