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Hart Pro Kick Frustration (Is there an impact badge that STICKS?)

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  • Hart Pro Kick Frustration (Is there an impact badge that STICKS?)

    To preface, I think if I had posted this yesterday it would've been all in CAPS with several instances of four consecutive asterisks. Now that I've had a day or so to cool down, I feel I can civilly and calmly request advice from you fine folks.

    This weekend all the issues I have had with my kick drum came to a head (pardon the pun). During the first of three sets on Friday night, I put a hole in the kick head--of course the beater got stuck and I had to continue the song left-footed using my slave pedal. I had plowed through 3 different impact pads in about 5 shows prior to this weekend, so I was hoping that the head would hold up for one show. Well, it lasted about 45 minutes.

    I replaced the head after set one, and rigged a temp fix for my lack of impact pad: I took the clear plastic package my Evans impact pads came in, cut out a rectangle (wide enough to receive both beaters) and duct-taped it to the new head.

    The remaining two sets consisted of me fixing the placement of the (custom) impact pad after every song because the damn thing just would not stay stuck to the head (or, rather, the duct tape). Aside from that fun, I pretty much decimated the brittle plastic by the last set. In packing up that night, I found an old, unbroken Aquarian Kick Pad that had lost probably 50% of its adhesiveness, so I had a possibly better temporary solution for the next night.

    Saturday: after setting up, I promptly affixed the Aquarian pad to the head, which stuck fairly well, but decided to duct tape the living hell out of it to avoid any and all issues. No such luck. During song one of set one, the pad slowly kept losing contact with both the head and tape. I'd readjust after each song, and every song thereafter it got worse. The tape kept bunching up and became useless, and toward the end of set two, there my primary beater was again, firmly planted inside the newly-created hole in my 24-hour old Magnum head. I cut the set short in leu of playing the remaining three songs with my left foot, and spent the entire set break replacing the head...again. This time, I rolled 8 pieces of duct tape, stuck them to the back side of the impact pad, stuck the pad to the head, and then re-taped the front of the pad to the head (keep in mind that this consisted of 5 or 6 strips of duct tape placed across the full diameter of the drum so that each end was stuck to the rim).

    The final set was no better--the pad kept slipping down during every song.

    My question is this: does ANYTHING stick these heads? I keep reading on here several recommendations of what impact pads to use to keep from breaking heads, but I have yet to hear anyone having the issues I am with keeping said pads stuck on the head. Granted, I'd say most drummers here have Roland kits, and I'd love to try the Roland heads to see if the pads actually stick to them, but of course they don't make one larger than 12".

    Here are the specifics:
    Hart Professional 13" Kick
    Aquarian Kontrol Screen Magnum head (tuned about midway between super-loose and tightened all the way)
    Axis double-kick pedal with hard plastic beaters

    I've tried the following impact pads, none of which will stick to the kick head for more than a gig or so (the links may show a single-kick pad, but I've used nothing but doubles):
    Aquarian Kick Pad
    Evans EQ (the clear one--haven't tried the black one, but I'm not sure if it's a different material...anyone tried both?)
    Gibraltar Double Click Pad
    Remo Falam Slam Pad

    Just to note--
    -The Aquarian material was the most durable, but its rigidity prohibited it from sticking well since the head flexes severly upon impact.
    -The Evans (clear) were useless. They come in packs of two; the first cracked by the end of its first show, but still sort of worked for another couple gigs. The second was in about four pieces after two sets.
    -The Gibraltar had the same problem as the Aquarian, with the added bonus of the outer-plastic cracking where it meets the inner hard material (the stuff that produces the 'click' sound, which I really don't like anyway).
    -The Remo was my favorite pad, feel-wise. It was tough and flexible, but so small its outer edges would eventually curl around the beater. And it wasn't tough enough--after a few shows the beater would wear through the outer layer and start sticking to the adhesive behind it.

    Speaking of which, that's another issue in and of itself: once one of these pads falls off, the beater keeps sticking to the adhesive residue it leaves on the head. Then I have to clean it off the beater so it doesn't keep sticking after I replaced the impact pad. It drives me nuts!

    My next move is to buy a stockpile of impact pads and maybe a roll of gaffer's tape, unless someone here can actually recommend something that works better, for which I will be forever grateful. I'm half-tempted to use a plastic acoustic head at this point...

    In other news...I haven't called Hart tech support yet, but does anyone know offhand if I can purchase a replacement for a damaged cone in the Professional Snare, and/or replace it myself, or will I have to send the drum to Hart?

    Thanks...
    Last edited by Vater; 05-05-08, 06:13 PM.
    Mike
    New (3/2007): Hart Dynamics Professional 6.4 w/ Roland TD20; Axis A2 Double Pedal
    Old (3/2006): Hart Dynamics Virtuoso w/ Roland TD6V
    www.reflexlive.com

  • #2
    I use a simple leather beater pad (cut from a chunk of saddle leather I had, about 1/8" thick) on my Hart kick, and I glued it to the head using Liquid Nails construction adhesive. The suggestion for this came from one of the folks I spoke to at the Hart tech line: that stuff sticks to pretty much anything, and sticks well. A small tube is only a couple of bucks at your local Home Depot.

    It appears to work because it can get good penetration into both the head fabric, and the fibrous rough side of the leather (with the beater working on the smooth side). It helps to massage the adhesive into the both the fabric and the leather before you put the pad on. I marked the area the pad would occupy on the head with a Sharpie, massaged a thin layer of the adhesive into the head, worked a thin layer onto the rough side of the pad, and then mated them so that the adhesive got good coverage on both. Then, I set a flat-bottomed weight onto the assembly (with the trigger laying horizontally on the bench, of course) and let it cure for a day or so before use. It's been on there for several years now, and I'm not gentle on it- I used to blow through heads very quickly.... Hope that helps.
    Last edited by skod; 05-05-08, 07:14 PM.

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    • #3
      I've never had a problem with the Evan's Black patches, but I don't use a Magnum head on my kick. I still use an old Hart 2-ply kontrol screen head on my kick.

      Anyway, GOOP is another adhesive that is quite popular for sticking patches to mesh kick heads. You can probably also find it at Home Depot or other hardware stores.

      -SD-

      Comment


      • #4
        Skod's solution sounds quite interesting - I wonder if you could also sew around the edge of the leather through the mesh head?

        What kind of beater do you use? There's other threads discussing this, but the point is, different beaters should not alter your triggered sound, but it may affect head life and strike-pad performance. I presently use a felt beater with a Falam Slam patch.

        I'm using a Hart Magnum head (is that what you meant?), and have tried the aquarian and Remo Falam Slam. The Falam Slam sticks fine for me, but the Aquarian didn't (with it's own adhesive). What worked for me (to finally get the Aquarian to stick), and something you may want to consider before the whole Liquid Nails thing, was to use some spray adhesive sprayed onto the Aquarian's adhesive, then stick it on. Make sure, whichever method you use, to allow the adhesive to dry and "set", i.e. don't apply the pad as you're setting up for a gig. One last thought: I bought some of the Duck-brand carpet tape at Lowe's, which is really more like a double-sided duct tape with fibers running through it. The stuff is so doggone sticky it's a pain in the a** to work with, but once it's stuck, it's pretty permanent. You could try that stuff stuck to your pad of choice.
        Roland TD-10exp, DIY 13" snare, DIY toms, DIY mesh Bass Trigger, Roland CY-15r, CY-8, CY-5, and Pintech PC cymbals

        Comment


        • #5
          If you ever get in that pinch again Gaffers tape works quite well... even without a patch.... several layers will get you through a gig easily! Lighting or Sound guys always have a roll around.. As stated above the Evans Black patch is very good about adhering and staying adhered. I have had Evans black patches for years on Roland kick and for a few years on my Hart Magnum kick head.
          I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
          Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Pearl Mimic Pro ,2Box modules,drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds directly from the Mimic and custom sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

          Comment


          • #6
            I too have not found a patch with adequate grip on the magnum heads. The closest I have come is using the Aquarian patch with 3M Hi-Strength 90 spray adhesive. Even that needs maintenance applications. I have not yet tried the liquid nails combo, but I will. I too am curious what make of plastic beater are you using? I was using a plastic pure sound, and though I loved how it played, it ate a new head in about three hours (not using a patch).
            TD-20, SPD-S, TAMA '82 Superstars
            http://www.outawhack.net/drumming ___ http://www.zendaddyband.com ___ http://www.myspace.com/353238983

            Comment


            • #7
              Thanks for the suggestions, all of you. As I sort of suspected, I probably got the wrong Evans patch. 50/50 shot and of course I chose poorly. The clear ones are basically a sticker made from a one-ply plastic drumhead. If I recall, the black ones consist of sort of a canvas-like material, no? I'm going to order a few of these.

              Regarding the adhesives (Liquid Nails, GOOP, etc.), do you actually apply it to the head while the head is mounted? If so I'd think that it would seep throught the head and stick to the large, square foam 'cone' underneath. Then again, gluing the patch to the head when unmounted doesn't seem ideal as there is no tension.
              Mike
              New (3/2007): Hart Dynamics Professional 6.4 w/ Roland TD20; Axis A2 Double Pedal
              Old (3/2006): Hart Dynamics Virtuoso w/ Roland TD6V
              www.reflexlive.com

              Comment


              • #8
                The black Evans patch is a weave material... the one in the pic has been mounted for over a year. Just be sure the spot is clean before applying.
                Attached Files
                I could tell you where to stick that piezo! ;)
                Stealthdrums.com Mega Kit: Pearl Mimic Pro ,2Box modules,drums and cymbals too many to count. VST quality sounds directly from the Mimic and custom sounds loaded into and played directly from the 2Box modules. Visit me anytime at: http://stealthdrums.com/

                Comment


                • #9
                  I've had good luck with the Dr. Scholl's moleskin. http://www.drscholls.com/drscholls/p...&searchArg=84#


                  http://tinyurl.com/My-E-kit

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I use Pintech protectors, and they stick just fine too. I would say though, that changes in atmospheric conditions make a difference too, and when we had a long damp spell it did start to peel a buit, but nothing that Scotch spray mount didn't fix.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Wow!!! I'm very suprised the Falam Slam failed!!

                      I've had the same one on my kd120 for a few years and it has never moved. I have to change it because it is starting to wear away.

                      -it's on a Roland head though...not sure how it would adhere to Hart heads. Plus I appplied it when it was rather hot out. I think that helped the adhesive "seep" into the weave so to speak.

                      JMan brought up Gaffers tape... good stuff! I'm pretty sure you could build a lunar module that was livable out of gaffers tape.

                      E
                      - your source for electronic cigs. Use coupon code "" for 10% off every order!!!

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I have the Hart Magnum on my 16" converted kick, and I use the clear Evans double pedal patch. At first it would not stick, but after a liberal application of some 3M 90 spray adhesive it hasn't budged in over a year. I remember someone recommending "Shoe Goo" on another forum.

                        http://www.eclecticproducts.com/shoegoo.htm

                        I also agree that the type/shape of the beat may also have an affect on how well these patches stay adhered. I use the DW beaters with the felt side forward.

                        J
                        Edrums- KD-120, PD-125 (3), PD-105 (3), Yamaha PCY155, PCY-135 (4)
                        Module - Roland TD20X
                        Software - Pro Tools and Toontrack Superior

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I'm sure you won't kick through one of those Danmar "double metal" aluminum kick pads....but getting it to stick well enough is still the problem. Also the issue of triggering.
                          I wonder if a very thin foam between the kickpad and the head would help, like the foam that is in double-sided foam tape. It is designed for adhering something rigid to something flexible...so that the foam moves instead of breaking the seal between the two items.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Vater View Post
                            Regarding the adhesives (Liquid Nails, GOOP, etc.), do you actually apply it to the head while the head is mounted? If so I'd think that it would seep throught the head and stick to the large, square foam 'cone' underneath. Then again, gluing the patch to the head when unmounted doesn't seem ideal as there is no tension.
                            Right. Yes, I did put the glue on while the head was mounted, so that the head was under working tension as the adhesive cured. if you are concerned about having the glue adhere to the transmission foam, simply pull the head off and put a sacrificial layer of saran wrap over the foam, before replacing the head. You can then either simply leave the wrap in place and forget about it, or dismount/remount after the adhesive is cured to get rid of it. I didn't bother, and I didn't get glue on the foam.

                            The biggest thing is penetration of the adhesive into the mesh, no matter what flavor it is. The peel and stick stuff on the back of most store-bought pads doesn't penetrate the mesh at all. But spray on/paint-on glues will, with a little effort. Frankly, I think you could then use any of the peel and stick products as long as you were sticking them onto a layer of penetrating glue that had been massaged into the head, and have good results.

                            I just keep a good old chunk of cowhide laying around, and I believe that it has shown excellent life when compared to any of the synthetic pads. I use the DW beaters on the solid plastic side, and used to saw through the various plastic pad materials on my acoustic kick pretty quickly. When I started using leather pads (a selfstick one from Jack's Drum Shop in Boston, originally), that ended pretty quickly. So I just make my own now, and they last pretty much forever.

                            The problem is abrasion: the beater rubs across the head slightly with each impact, since it doesn't hit perfectly perpendicular to the head- it is swinging slightly down on its arc, since it has traveled overcenter to get to the head. The resulting abrasion rips right through the head material toot sweet, whether plastic or mesh. So to my way of thinking, the best pad material would be to use the most abrasion resistant material possible. But your mileage may vary!
                            Last edited by skod; 05-06-08, 11:29 AM.

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                            • #15
                              I applied the 3M adhesive to the back of the kick patch liberally, then when I position it on the head I just kind of move the patch around a little to work the adhesive into the mesh.

                              J
                              Edrums- KD-120, PD-125 (3), PD-105 (3), Yamaha PCY155, PCY-135 (4)
                              Module - Roland TD20X
                              Software - Pro Tools and Toontrack Superior

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